flight systems does school training?
i thought all they did was repair control boards and such

yes a week long training class is very expensive, especially if they put you up in a hotel too and pay for all your meals etc.

Back when i worked for Yale Carolinas they sent me and one other tech to a week long school in thier Greenville NC Plant on the SEM Control System when they first introduced them in the ERC series trucks. Was a good school :o)
I think the whole class had about 40 techs from all over, most from gregory poole.

Of course after that they (Yale Caro) started bringing in an engineer from Yale and doing those cheap 2 day training classes at the shop.
Cramming in all that stuff in 2 days was a pain i tell ya... doh!

From what i'm hearing now nacco is requiring thier dealerships to have thier tech's certified on any truck before they can work on it, or at least thats what i'm being told. I have a feeling this is more for warranty purposes than anything but i could be wrong. I suppose there might be a certain liability to working on those emissions systems, i've just never had to go to that length before to be qualified to work on them.

I had been doing this for a few years, but it was not considered unusual for a dealer to spend a thousand or 2 (in 1980 dollars) to send a tech to a week or so of 'school', and I know that the schools that flight systems or TVH provide are in no manner inexpensive, but do provide a tech with valuable understanding of the systems they cover. Most manufacturers "national accounts level" fleet purchasers could wrangle a place or 10 (maybe even free) in the factory level training on the units the corporation is purchasing, depending on how many units are being bought, and what price they are being bought for.

well after having a day to think about this and think about what i posted earlier i thought i might want to clarify a couple of things

first off these customers i speak of that got training were from big corporations that had purchased fleets of trucks from cat, i'm sure they had something worked out with cat to allow them to get the training etc. so..... this i guess would be the exception to the rule?
I am almost 99% sure you can get a service manual from the mfg through your dealer parts dept if your willing to pay for it.

secondly.... as far as the private independent tech?
no i wouldnt expect they would get different treatment than what bbforks got.
bbforks, that guy could of at least offered to sell you a manual :o)
i work with other competition like yale and hyster at times when i need help i cant get from our guys, of course i know most of these guys in thier training depts and their techs, being in the business for 30 + yrs does have its advantages i suppose ;o)

generally dealerships rely on this priviliged information from the mfg to do thier job and make their money. IF every tom george and harry had this the dealerships would be hurt bigtime, because the independent guy can undercut labor rates and alot of other things that are considered overhead for a big dealer. I'm fairly sure what hurts the independent guy is that he cant offer manufacturer support like the dealership can.

Besides you cant totally blame the dealer for the security encompased around the information and programs used on these lifts, yes they want to keep it 'inhouse' to keep thier business going, and its the government that dictates to the mfg's to design the lifts to certain EPA standards now because of emmissions standards and you have to be a certified mechanic to work on them.... according to the rules setup by the people that were the architects of this envrionmental
program.
And of course the DMCA and any of those other 4 letter acronyms the government came up with to help protect the intellectual rights of the ones writing these programs and information.
Can you see where i'm going with this?
I'm sure we could start a whole new conversation in another thread on that alone :o)

EasyM, is that a trick question?
hehe ;o)
just kiddin
i'd say no to that

If you owned a dealership, would you want to train independent technicians and provide them with the software just to compete with them down the road?

I think that is an issue that all forklift tech's need to take very seriously. I learned this business from my father who worked at a hyster dealer back in the 50's, went on his own in the 60's, & went on to make a very nice life for his family for the next 30 years. He always said that forklifts were about 10-15 years behind cars. I've found that to be true. With that said- look at cars today. Can you imagine what we're in for if we have no information?

I've been fortunate enough to have been helped by this forum already ( joined about a week ago) by someone who had information the dealer wouldn't sell me. I realized then that something has to be done or we're all in trouble. When a dealer looks you in the eye, with a smile on his face & tells you there's information available but "not for you", it's a HUGE red flag. (The kicker is that the custmer is not even in the dealers territory- which they knew).

I've never worked at a dealership, so I know tech's that work there have issues I don't know\understand & the same is true that I, as an independent have issues dealer techs don't know/understand, but what I do know is that if nothing is done, we all will work for dealers if we want to stay in this field.

I am in for that fortis class too.

ya interesting point edwardt
i know in the past back years ago when i worked for what was called 'wrenn brothers' (now barlowworld, and soon to be liftone) they did train vendor tech's on occasion at a price of course, NOW i cant say how they are. AND of course you dont see this happening very often because of the cost of training, most customers are not willing to pay what it takes to attend a training class. IMO this is why its not so common. One customer i refer to that i know has the diagnoser software and has had some kind of training for cat is cocacola. I'm sure there have been others but i personally dont know for sure who they are. As for hyster/nacco? This current day i'm not sure either how they cater to independent's IF they even do now.

In the case of Crown? I believe they are more like raymond when it comes to thier trucks and training , they dont want anyone messing with anything of thiers period, i think is why they randomly change thier superword access on thier lifts routinely and train thier techs to not talk to any other tech from ANY other competitor.... if i'm not mistaken they have a 0 tolerance rule on this matter as well. What i see with crown and have heard from guys that have worked with them in the past they are heading downhill fast, I wouldnt want to work for them at all knowing what i know about them. They seem to follow a closely similar path as raymond.

bbforks,
sorry i came across a bit harsh in that response
i may have over-reacted slightly with an emotional response
doh!

i'm sure its not a perfect world EVERYWHERE in this world and ESPECIALLY in THIS industry :o)
I'm sure eventually training customers techs will be a thing of the past sooner or later due to cost of training unless you are a big corporation that has a large maintenance department like cocacola does. And as for hyster and how they handle this now?
I cant say....
It would only stand to reason that IF one had the money to pay for the training they would do it. But from what i'm hearing now they(nacco) require the technition to have certifications before they can even work on a truck of any type model and have the warranty supported. I'm sure this is ONLY comming from nacco and thier warranty standpoint as they wont pay for any warranty claims if a non-certified tech repairs a machine. But this is getting out of the realm of this discussion so i'll stop here on this :o)

I suppose we will just have to wait and see how things unfold in this new world we are jumping into.... i just get frustrated when i see things like this, knowing that in this day and age anything is possible if you have the money to pay for it, it seems. :o)

I'm sorry I sounded like I was whining- I'm just speaking from experience. As an independent company- the dealers in my area aren't in the business of training their competition. I've never been able to get any type of assistance of a technical nature from the dealers in my area. When I ask, they tell me they'd be happy to go fix it for me. I'm not in a position to have a relationship with a dealer of every brand of forklift outside of my area, so information is something I've never been able to get. Sure- the dealers have training sessions & workshops for owners of fleets, but not for independent companies- at least this has been my experience.

I was at a customer who has a fleet of crowns recently ( Their service dept. services those), I service a few I/C trucks they have. When I asked their lead tech about the software needed to service the electronics, he told me that they had to call the dealer for those issues, that they couldn't get the required information. I don't know if he was blowing smoke or not, all's I know is what he told me. Why would a company have their own service dept & not get them the tools they need to service their equipment?

John, [real questions] is it going to be that way (with software and cable availability) once LiftOne is selling NACCO product? Can I sign up for a Fortis Class?
I am not sure it works the same for every manufacturer, or every dealer's training department.

i'm sorry but since when is it impossible for ANY mechanic be it independent or working for another mfg or even a customer with a fleet of trucks to schedule and attend the training classes for the lifttruck they wish to learn about and obtain the required hardware and software to work on said trucks?
Last time i checked you can do this.
Yes it costs you money to take the training and obtain the software but far as i know its not impossible to get.
We have trained our customers techs and they have the necessary things to work on thier trucks, we do this for anyone that needs it if thier willing to pay for the training and etc.
i hate to play the devils advocate here but this whole thread wreaks of whining and moaning because someone isnt willing to do what it takes to get thier job done.

I, as EasyM states, am a "little guy". I have no problem with manufacturer's having to develope new technology to meet new government standards. I also have no problem with them passing their costs onto dealers who in turn pass them on to users. The problem I have is when they lock out anyone else from accessing the information needed to repair the new technology. If a user is trapped into using only a dealer for repairs, then a monopoly is in place. This then dictates to the user the downtime & price of repairs. The user cannont make an informed decision on what brand of equipment to buy because only with experience can the dealers service & pricing be found out. Imagine what it would be like to buy a new car & have no service options other than the dealer you bought it from. I don't think any one of us would enjoy that senario.

If the monies spent on developing the technology is really the issue- then the dealers could charge a fee to access the information to recoup their costs. I believe this would only happen if they were forced to, as having a monopoly would be much more profitable.

As far as small companies not discussing risks with customers, I take issue with EasyM. Maybe some don't, but I most certainly do. I've never risked ruining a warranty for my customer, as that would ruin the trust my customer has with me. If I can run my business with less overhead & pass that savings onto my customer, that's what free enterprise is all about. Some companies like having full service dealers, some don't. I don't think any company would like being forced to only have 1 option.

In my experience the so called trained manufacturers engineers are not always that great at repairing their own product either, we have had the manufacturer of German yellow trucks, engineers in the UK go to jobs we have had to end up sorting because they either were struggling or just part fitting until the truck is repaired on their own product!
We have done motor, strip skim and rebuild jobs for £800 rather than £4000 quoted to just replace, customers cant and should not put up with this way of working and having to pay for the lack of common sense of so called factory trained engineers!! so what happens when the crap hits the fan with them??

Customers like the labor rates charged by the "little guys" but when a truck is misdiagnosed in the field by a non trained mechanic, they try and hold the manufacturer responsible. Extended warranties on most equipment can be voided if service is not being performed by authorized dealers. Small independent service companies don't usually discuss these risks with the customer. All is well and good with these independents until the crap hits the fan.

I thought all the OE's were getting tired of the bellyaching and were going to quit making it so difficult for the average mechanic to fix someone's forklift!

PS I have a 1974 Clark for sale and it will not take a laptop to tell me if I should change the sparkplugs!

Proshadetree, It's good for you that you own your own laptop and most of the cables. If I used my own laptop, I wouldn't have access to any software the company( dealership) has purchased the right to use. Might change,but for now, I'll use theirs. And by the way, if it hits the floor, I'm responsible for the repairs, or if it gets damaged or stolen, unless the truck is broken into. I have a bunch of customers who have lifts old enough not to need the new technology, and most stay where they are not because of the company name.
Convincing the people I deal with to purchase equipment is easy, convincing the bean counter in another state is another.

edward t.... I'm not quite the jerk I appear to be....

The market demands, Government requires, or Lawyers force R and D. The customer comes to expect faster lift speeds, "SAS", "Intrinsic Stability", smoother operations, more visibility, higher lift, narrower aisles, cameras, auto leveling forks... etc.... The manufacturer pays upfront for all that technology that is demanded. They are the first named in lawsuits. The manufacturer frequently use suppliers, yes, but it based on the manufacturer's specs in many cases, not just going parts shopping through the SMH website. Should they not protect their investment?

Those tools are the property of the technician, he can employ them however he sees fit. I got no problem with competition, as a matter of fact I live that competition every day. My frustration is the apparent "entitlement" attitude that a manufacturer should be compelled by law to turn over all of their "secrets" to any and everybody.

Let the freemarket work. If you as a mechanic bring so much value to the table, convince your customer to buy equipment that you can work on, and the other manufacturers will bow to the pressure. Trust me, I have seen the ugly side of not meeting ITA sales expectations.

I think meliftman is using the term 'trademark law' to indicate 'all intellectual property law', and (IANL) I think it is proper to refer to the law governing manuals and software as 'trade secret' and/or 'copyright' (mainly copyright). But he does have the correct idea about someone paying the license fees to own the right to distribute the information and software.
AND, actually what was done in the automotive world was to create an 'open standard', where the copyright for the standard is owned by some organization that allows it to be used/licensed without added fees, like the IEEE or in the forklift world, if not the IEEE, then ITSDF.
I think it is also a great point that 90% of what breaks does not require a laptop to fix, some people seems to stop hearing right after the "on this truck you need a laptop" and don't hear the "to only do about 5 things".

Trademark law was not repealed when auto manufacturers were made to comply. Now as for the cost of all the crud. I own my laptop. I have to fix my laptop when it eats to much floor. I own 85% of all my cables. I own all my tools. Now as for programing yes my dealership has provided what is required to preform work on most models. The best training I ever had was from hard knocks and a bunch of help after the fact.


I believe that most stealerships have found out that they can do bad service if they lock a customer in. As someone stated earlier customers will vote with their wallet and the value of such lifts will lessen. I have witnessed older non controlled lifts selling for more than newer models.

Congress will have to repeal the trademark law or the companies who want information will have to pay the copyright fees in order for the information to be made public. 99% of the repairs, except some electrics, can be made by any intelligent technician with mechanical aptitude. I work for a dealer and find that most repairs do not require the codes and/or access to the system to complete. It costs the dealer a ton of money to train us, which means we might not get that next raise. Why should the information be available to the general public for free when it costs the dealer? Don't think the dealer doesn't have to pay for access to the information, then they have to train the techs, supply the equipment,ie laptops, testers, cables. And for some of us, if we don't have it on our trucks, we won't have access for at least 24 hours, or drive two hours one way to the shop.

Great point of the majority of the systems being developed outside the dealer. Impco still has a great hand on many of the control systems used by various manufacturers today.