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How long will caterpillar stay in forklift market
  • exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
As Caterpillar announce between 4,000 - 5,000 job loses , I wonder how long it will be before they will want cat dealers to put full attention to its core business of construction equipment and drop forklifts.
  • Posted 27 Sep 2015 06:50 AM
Total replies: 23. Showing items 1 - 20 of 23 results.
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Replies
Cat is not in the forklift business. They are in the getting a royalty for the brand business. Cat does not have any owner ship in MCFA any longer.

Now with that said lot of people think that either Cat or Mitsi will not continue the branding much longer(5 years) either one could not resign the deal

Cat because MCFA low market share and less than great products, only a few CAT heavy dealers left in the mcfa network.

MCFA because they just bought unicarrier, and the CAT brand on forklifts does not command extra money in todays market place. and the partnership with JUNG which is the real premium product in the us market
  • Posted 29 Sep 2015 03:40 AM
  • paul_m
  • Florida, United States
Cat branding is worth its weight in gold to most buyers and does command a premium in the secondary market. MCFA gets pins because of the name, even a Jung branded Cat sells before the Jung in the [url removed]
  • Posted 29 Sep 2015 10:20 PM
  • exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Hi yes the caterpillar brand is very strong in a lot of markets, but with the problems cat have in their core businesses,how long before they concentrate on these businesses and drop the forklift line.


Cat have now major problems in minning and construction equipment so wont they want to put all focus on these and pull out of other not as important markets
  • Posted 29 Sep 2015 10:39 PM
Caterpillar has not made industrial forklifts since the early 1990's. When Caterpillar bought Towmotor it was because the CEO of CAT wanted to get into the forklift business. The truth is that they never made money selling forklifts. The initial idea of having the CAT construction equipment dealers sell forklifts did not work very well as the dealers made a lot more money on the construction equipment than forklifts. The construction equipment dealers started telling CAT that they no longer wanted the lift truck franchise in the mis to late 1980"s. As they slowly lost dealers Caterpillar realized that their future in the lift truck business was not very bright. Their share of market never was very good either. The entered into an agreement with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries forming MCFA in 1992 that basically said that MCFA could manufacture forklifts and use the CAT logo not the Caterpillar name though just the CAT logo and market the trucks as CAT's. The trucks marketed under that name have been Mitsubishi trucks with different paint jobs and some limited cosmetic differences. The CAT branded trucks have still not commanded a strong market share compared to the leaders in the market.

They still have a problem with their distribution network as well. They have some strong dealers but have lost many good ones over the past years such as Pape', LiftOne and Gregory Poole among others.

Caterpillar has sold off more of their stake in MCFA to Mitsubishi and currently is a minority partner in that venture.

So the answer to the question as to when Caterpillar will get out of the lift truck market is they are already pretty much out of it and anyone who buys a CAT branded lift truck thinking it is a Caterpillar product is only fooling themselves.
  • Posted 2 Oct 2015 06:35 AM
Caterpillar has not made industrial forklifts since the early 1990's. When Caterpillar bought Towmotor it was because the CEO of CAT wanted to get into the forklift business. The truth is that they never made money selling forklifts. The initial idea of having the CAT construction equipment dealers sell forklifts did not work very well as the dealers made a lot more money on the construction equipment than forklifts. The construction equipment dealers started telling CAT that they no longer wanted the lift truck franchise in the mis to late 1980"s. As they slowly lost dealers Caterpillar realized that their future in the lift truck business was not very bright. Their share of market never was very good either. The entered into an agreement with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries forming MCFA in 1992 that basically said that MCFA could manufacture forklifts and use the CAT logo not the Caterpillar name though just the CAT logo and market the trucks as CAT's. The trucks marketed under that name have been Mitsubishi trucks with different paint jobs and some limited cosmetic differences. The CAT branded trucks have still not commanded a strong market share compared to the leaders in the market.

They still have a problem with their distribution network as well. They have some strong dealers but have lost many good ones over the past years such as Pape', LiftOne and Gregory Poole among others.

Caterpillar has sold off more of their stake in MCFA to Mitsubishi and currently is a minority partner in that venture.

So the answer to the question as to when Caterpillar will get out of the lift truck market is they are already pretty much out of it and anyone who buys a CAT branded lift truck thinking it is a Caterpillar product is only fooling themselves.
  • Posted 2 Oct 2015 06:35 AM
The agreement between CAT and Mitsi was resigned 2 years ago for a further 20 years so there will be CAT forklift trucks in the market for many years to come. CAT themselves were also directly involved in the negotiations that led to the acquisition of Unicarriers so they do still have some interest in the arrangement.
  • Posted 9 Oct 2015 02:41 AM
Deadpan not sure where you are getting your info from yes there will be Cat trucks it is just a licensing agreement between Cat Inc and Mitsubishi Caterpillar Forklift America.
I doubt very much on the Unicarriers deal.
  • Posted 9 Oct 2015 03:47 AM
Just for the record when the MCFA joint venture was formed in 1992 along with MCFE, MCFS the breakdown of ownership was MHI 70%, Caterpillar, Inc 20% & 10% Mitsubishi Corporation (the trading company that distributed Mitisubishi products in the US through MDI). Later, some time after 1996, MHI bought out the 10% from Mitsubishi Corporation). Yes, I know this well as I was with MDI from 1984 thru 1996.
So in a nutshell, Cat Inc. was always a minor investor in the MCFA program and received compensation for those products badged CAT. Cat Inc. eventually closed Caterpillar Industrial Inc. aka CII (the forklift division the sold lift trucks)
  • Posted 9 Oct 2015 08:53 PM
  • Tampa2
  • Florida, United States
In response to "Exalt"...

As the Geico commercial says so accurately, "That's not how this works... That's not how ANY of this works".
There would be NO gain in focus for a Cat dealer to drop the MCFA forklift line, only a loss of profit from that division.
It would not even be a point of consideration... not for a moment.
  • Posted 11 Oct 2015 12:43 AM
  • • Modified 11 Oct 2015 12:46 AM by poster
  • exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Why won't Cat want it's dealers to concentrate on one core product range like construction or minning were Cat earn most money. Cat look like a company that needs change of direction to be able to concentrate on one or two core product range. Apple did this in the 90's and turned their business around. Cat need to do the Same when you are looking at laying off up to 10,000 people you need a drastic message
  • Posted 11 Oct 2015 01:21 AM
I don't think you're getting it Exalt...

Caterpillar does not manufacture forklifts. They are only in it for the branding. They are getting a check for their name. They do not have dealers, MCFA has dealers. It has nothing to do with the thousands of jobs lost or the Cat mining or dirt segments.
  • Posted 12 Oct 2015 11:51 PM
  • • Modified 12 Oct 2015 11:51 PM by poster
For Caterpillar this money for nothing. Why would they want to stop that?
  • Posted 13 Oct 2015 02:07 AM
Anybody remember the raymond built ,cat branded lift trucks from the mid 90s. Never could figure that one out.
  • Posted 13 Oct 2015 02:53 AM
Partsguy5, both points are from someone who personally meets regularly with MCF board level employees both in Europe and Japan.
  • Posted 13 Oct 2015 03:03 AM
Raymond/Cat thing was a private label agreement between Raymond & Cat as in CII). Cat wanted to get into the Class II/III market. In the narrow aisle product the Cat product used a different controller. The Cat badged trucks had their own first line support team based in Greene but in a separate facility & a set up as a different company (MHE as I recall). Service parts were packaged & shipped in CAT labled products. After the formation of MCFA in 1992, the Mitusbishi branding of the MHE products began in 1994?. The Mitsi products utilized GE controllers in Class II models to have some prodcut difference between Cat, Raymond & Mitsi. Personally, worked on the agreement along with our legal council & upper management while I was at MCFA.

Obviously, these agreements all died the death of a ragged doll when Toyota took over Raymond.
  • Posted 13 Oct 2015 04:36 AM
I was at raymond training center for reach truck maint training and seeing the cat reps and cat branded units on the build line. The feed back I got was that raymond was REALLY glad to get the business.
  • Posted 13 Oct 2015 09:49 PM
  • exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Well that seems to answer that question,so how I understand this is Cat Let Mitsi use the CAT name for a fee Mitsi have there own dealers who sell Misti trucks painted Yellow for a hire price than a green Misti.


Then the other question is why
  • Posted 14 Oct 2015 06:57 PM
exalt,
You ask why? The MCF joint venture started in 1992 over 23 years now. Obviously, they are making money as MCFA in the US has undergone several facility expansions during this period. So everybody Cat & MHI are both happy and Jungheinrich too.

How the buyout Nissan/TCM plays out is yet to be seen-but have confidence that MHI/Nichiyu do have a plan that will unfold over time. One of the chief guiding principles of Japanese companies is they operate under the principle of a continuing Plan-See-Do process.

So it would be best to just sit back and relax to see how the rest of the story unfolds vs playing an armchair quarterback - as in the American version of "football"

Another thing that one needs to understand Mitsubishi (MHI) & Caterpillar Inc. have had an even much longer relationship (starting in the late 1940's - I believe) in the construction equipment business side - MHI used to build excavators, small bulldozers & motor graders for Cat as well as selling small HP diesel engines to Cat under a private label agreement. In the mid/late 1980 MHI sold their excavator operation in Japan to Caterpillar Inc. Can't really comment on what the current relationship is between MHI & Cat but they have been " strange bed fellows" for a long time.
Here is an article from 2008 you might want to read [url removed]
  • Posted 14 Oct 2015 08:50 PM
  • • Modified 14 Oct 2015 09:19 PM by poster
  • exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
OK thanks. Can some say why Yellow paint is worth up to 10 percent more than green paint
  • Posted 15 Oct 2015 06:59 PM
  • • Modified 15 Oct 2015 07:00 PM by poster
People buy brands in most cases. Why does General Motors sell several different brands of cars when under the cosmetics, many of the different brand models use the same engines and components? People tend to buy the brand and in many cases stick with that brand for a long time.
Why do you think companies spend millions of dollars on ads and promotions to build their brands and the buying publics recognition of those brands and their desire to own it? The more desirable the buyers perception is of a brand the more he will pay for it in most cases.
There are still many lift truck purchasers out there that believe that Cat lift trucks are made by Caterpillar as you did Exalt. That is an example of the power of a brand.
  • Posted 15 Oct 2015 11:29 PM
  • • Modified 17 Oct 2015 07:59 AM by poster
Total replies: 23. Showing items 1 - 20 of 23 results.
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