Yale G83P-040:
OIL SPRAY clutch nightmare !

HELP!

Anyone out there remember these OIL SPRAY clutches?
Any secret fixes??

The fuel system and ignition works great on this old 1970 truck now.

One of the last issues is the clutch dragging.
It is an OIL SPRAY clutch which has a pipe on the top inspection cover and an oil pump that sprays ATF into the clutch and pressure plate.

Problem is the **** clutch drags.
So bad that you can't go from neural to FWD or REV with the engine idling. And I have to start it in gear.

I took it all apart with intentions of replacing the worn clutch disk.........someone told me the grooves in the disk wear down smooth and that makes the disk stick to the flywheel with oil suction.

When I got it apart, I was amazed that everything looks like new. New flywheel, new or rebuilt pressure plate and very nice new looking disk with plenty of checkerboard grooves on the lining.

NOW WHAT??

I drilled 60 1/4 inch holes in the disk......right thru it.
To break up the surface and stop the suction.
I also put some waviness back in the disc to help it spring free from the flywheel......because it is supposed to have some 'set' in it and it was nearly flat.

Result..........it is WORSE !!
It drags worse now!
I can't even go from FWD to REV or REV to FWD now.
I used to be able to quickly change directions if I shifted it quickly, but it has to much 'load' on it now.
It drags so bad it just grinds and will not go into gear if it is taken out of gear.
I even adjusted the clutch so I had maximum travel and MAX RELEASE....
It would not even drive the machine with the clutch out, but still dragged to bad to go into gear with the pedal fully depressed.

I am wondering at this point how these worked when NEW from the factory!

Many hours spent and it's worse than it was....


HELP please.....

dan k
  • Posted 24 Feb 2013 09:06
  • Modified 24 Feb 2013 09:12 by poster
  • Discussion started by dkmc
  • New York, United States
Showing items 1 - 15 of 24 results.
Thank you I will keep that in mind.
I also have a parts manual and shop manual for this
machine.

dk
  • Posted 5 Mar 2013 04:10
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
Congradulations! Nice to see that you were able to isolate & repair the issue.

As far the the ATF fluid- I do know that Ford type F is more sticky than Dexron- in my younger days when I played with cars- whenever you put a shift kit in a GM model- the instructions always said to replace the Dextron with Type F for improved shift performance.

Also- I have a parts book for your truck so if you ever need part numbers feel free to contact me
  • Posted 5 Mar 2013 00:29
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
Problem FIXED

Well, 10 hours yesterday (Saturday) and I am HAPPY to write the EPILOG to this dilemma.

I measured the travel of the throw out bearing, and took off the trans cover, and made a wood block spacer equal to the travel when the clutch pedal is depressed. I was able to now inspect the clearance between the disc and the pressure plate.
There was none.....
The "warp" in the disc was causing the drag. I had to use channel lock pliers to turn the input shaft with the clutch in the 'release' position. It did not turn really hard, but there was noticeable effort required to turn it. Certainly enough drag to prevent getting it in gear...

Took it all back apart, and put the disc on the input shaft between to shaft collars to capture it on the shaft.
I managed to straighten the disc. Actually, I got it very straight
and running true. I did not think I would be able to get it back that straight, but it worked out really pretty good. There were a couple spots that were 'kinked' but I put it back in the truck with the pressure plate, and the wood spacer to check again.

Those 2 spots did drag......BUT now I could turn the input shaft by hand with just some slight drag! I could also feel the 'stickiness' or 'grip' of the fluid when I was turning the input shaft. I marked those spots on the disc and took it back apart again.....for a second go-round.
Got those spots bent back as well, now the disc is really looking straight! Back together again, and very little drag with the ability to wiggle the disc between the PP and flywheel.

I also put the pressure plate in the hydraulic press on a flat plate, and checked the travel and the flatness of the plates adjustment. It was flat within about 5 thousandths all around, which is not surprising considering the PP looks 'like new'.

Well, I re-assembled it all again, and started it up....WAY way better! I am able to shift from neutral to any gear with just a bit of gear 'grind'....not any big deal, and from one gear to another it is silent. I think the slight bit of grind is typical of these transmissions, and it's just a gentle pull on the shifter and it 'bumps' into gear.
WOW......finally!

Apparently, the bit of 'warp' that -was- in this disc was causing the problem from the start, and the 'extra' warp I put in, made it worse.
The disc was not sticking to the flywheel and this was not a case of oil 'suction'. It was the drag from the 'warp'.

I don't know if I will change the oil from Dexron II to type F or not. Maybe down the road a bit....
I'd like to learn more about the difference between Dexron and Type F.

THANKS for all the reply's, ideas, and suggestions on this problem!

dan k
  • Posted 4 Mar 2013 07:02
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
sounds like you 2 got this under control

good luck
  • Posted 28 Feb 2013 21:36
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
Yes, basically that is it......no set screw tho......there are 3/8" thru bolts that go thru the shafts and the fork casting.

Your idea is excellent, and I will do this!
Then I can know the actual gap dimension.

thanks
dk
  • Posted 28 Feb 2013 08:50
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
The fork for the throw out bearing is in the top cover, pivots on 2 half shafts, one of which is hooked thru linkage to the clutch pedal- is this correct? If so,is the fork positioned correctly? There should be a set screw that's screwed into the fork that indexes the fork to the shaft, does this sound correct & is it indexed correctly?

If these check out ok, I'd measure how far the fork moves forward when hooked to the clutch pedal, then make up a test rig & move the throw out bearing the same distance with the top half of the cover removed & check the clearances that way
  • Posted 28 Feb 2013 08:38
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
I appreciate your friends years of knowledge and his comments....

It is for sure a dilemma....the disc fits nicely on the input shaft.
I can move the shaft back and forth in the splines and in the trans input bearing seat (half the bore is in the trans and half the bore is in the top cover). The shaft slides freely back and forth.....I can't imagine it is binding on anything.

The pressure plate is an unknown.

The clutch fork and release arm are located in the top trans cover.
With the cover on, I think it is not possible to reach up far enough to the clutch to insert a feeler gauge in the gap.
(But I will TRY!)

I know I can't see up there for a visual inspection. And with the cover off....well.... no way to operate the pressure plate....
  • Posted 28 Feb 2013 06:19
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
I spoke with a friend of mine today who has 50+ years in the equipment repair business (not confined to just forklifts). He has seen wet clutches on all types of equipment with flat & wavy clutch discs. He's also had multiple oils used in these applications.

His 2 cents is that he has never personally seen an oil misapplication cause a sticking issue- it's always been a slippage issue. He has found that a wrong application of oil will cause a clutch to slip- not stick. Also- some discs are wavy, some are flat & he agrees that the wave is there to help with separation (I stand corrected).

His suggestion was to disassemble the clutch assy, make sure that the disc isn't binding on the input shaft & to make sure that the pressure plate was working correctly & not binding.

If the clutch assy passes these 2 tests, then assemble the clutch back together & measure the clearance of the disc to the pressure plate & flywheel while the clutch pedal is depressed.

I know you said that you can't see inside the bellhousing when the unit is completely assembled, you may have to take these measurements while it is partially disassembled.

Hope this helps
  • Posted 28 Feb 2013 05:21
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
Some of your points may be valid......
The machine was doing this when I got it.

However I have written the possible reasons (as explained to me) as to why the disc is 'warped'.
It was explained to me why it is warped on purpose not because of some fault in use.

I put in Dextron II when I changed it because there is no such thing as type F anymore I don't believe?
What are the differences between Type F and Dex II ??

I do plan on checking the PP setup....
I am not sure new parts are the answer, and I am on a limited budget as well.

I appreciate all comments and input!
I don't know the answers to the problem, that is why I am asking for information from you professionals on this forum.
  • Posted 28 Feb 2013 01:28
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
it has ATF in it for a reason, like bbforks said, it is thinner than normal hydraulic oil and it has gripping qualities. Now before you go throwing in just any ATF it might help to find out the recommended type of ATF it has. Reason i say this is because alot of those older lifts used mercon fluid which is a ford type F fluid i believe, and it is non-synthetic also. You dont want any kind of synthetic based fluid because it will indeed make it slip then. The same thing applies to regular hydraulic oil like AW32 etc, i wouldnt change the type of oil at all if i were you. If you do it will cause bad slipping and then once that gets in the disc its done... you will wind up replacing it.

As for straightening the existing clutch disc? i suppose you can try that but ask yourself why it was warped in the first place? those fingers on the pressure plate should all be even. If any of those fingers are uneven then you have a spring pressure problem and it is probably applying uneven pressure on the disc. This could be why the disc is warped?

with all the time your spending dissassembling and reassembling this you could just try and get a new clutch and pressure plate and rule out those possibilities all-together?

just a couple more things to ponder while scratching your head ;o)
  • Posted 27 Feb 2013 22:07
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
It shouldn't slip with hyd oil, the pressure plate should be calibrated for the oil. If it does slip, get the disc resurfaced for a dry application & remove the oil if possible.
  • Posted 27 Feb 2013 05:40
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
Maybe it will slip too much with Hyd oil??
I may have to add some ATF!
  • Posted 27 Feb 2013 04:45
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
Standard hydraulic oil should work if that's the problem (wrong oil). The challenge is not the viscosity ( ATF is much thinner than any HYD or engine oil you're going to find), but what the oil is designed to do. ATF is designed to clean, remove heat/moisture & grip ( Dextron,vs Ford, etc), whereas hyd & engine oil are designed to not only remove heat & such, but lubricate as well- there are no additives to promote engagement of any kind.
  • Posted 27 Feb 2013 04:36
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
My plan is to

1. Take it back apart, put the disc on the input shaft in a lathe and bend it back as straight and flat as possible.

2. Check the setup of the pressure plate, make sure the fingers are adjusted equally, etc.

3. If it still drags upon re-assembly, I will take out the ATF and put in the thinnest Hyd. oil I can find.
  • Posted 27 Feb 2013 03:15
  • Reply by dkmc
  • New York, United States
I'm thinking that since you were originally going to redo the disc anyway, I'd try draining the system of ATF & install hyd oil & check operation then. The type of oil depends on the friction material of the disc & since we don't know that, trial & error will have to guide us.
  • Posted 27 Feb 2013 00:27
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!

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