Looking back through the years, most rework and "misdiagnosis" is caused by:
#1 Lack of experience and technical knowledge. Many mechanics are good at taking things apart and reassembling, but do not know how to Troubleshoot. Having knowledge, like proshadetree mentioned, is very important. Studying diagrams and schematics as well as "principals of operation". If you know how stuff works, then you can fix it. Diagnostic skills come from "knowledge and years of experience.
#2 being in a hurry. We all know customers want their stuff "NOW" and put pressure on a fellow to "hurry" and get them going. This is a receipe for failure, you have to take the time to check it out and fix it right, some techs fall apart under pressue. This doesn't mean they are "Bad", they may not be cut out for the road, a shop enviroment may be best for them. We have all been their, The shipping guy has his boss breathing down his neck to get trailers loaded, so he is just passing it on to us, you have to learn to not let it get to you. Having good customer skills is a must in these situations.
Having a dispatcher rushing you does not help either, "Hurry up, I have another call for you," or the famous, "How much do you lack?, Joe over at ABC needs you there ASAP". My response is "Tell him to grab a number and get in line or send another tech, what is the sense of rushing through and misdiagnosing or screw up and leave something loose and have to come back?
A "GOOD" manager will use the 90 day deal to evaluate a new tech. Put him in the shop for a week and see how he does, then let him ride with seasoned Techs who know their stuff and check him out, it really does not take a long time to figure out if they are going to cut it.

Roadservice is a world all of it's own, nothing against shop guys, we need them too. You can take the best shop guy in town, give him a hand full of Work order forms and put him in a van and 3/4ths of the customers will be upset. He will beg to be back in the shop. You have to be a little bit "Nuts" to be in Road Service, That must be why I love it!! I would rather "Pich crap with the Chickens then work in a shop!
If managers would properly evaluate new hires, rework would be almost non-exsistant. But if you know nothing then how can you evaluate a new hire..... "There I go again, picking on managers, My Bad!!
More in line with the thread of the post, When you interviewed for the spot, if they explained the travel time deal with you, and you agreed to it, well hum........A wise man told me once, "Don't complain about what YOU allowed or agreed too"
You might need to pull a "Hank Snow", "Im moving on , I'll soon be gone!

Rework/mistakes/misdiagnoses do those all the time seeems like a 2 rec nope ita a 5.Oil sender leaking nope its the pan.Part of the job.Every tech out there will tell you the same most trucks do same thing its the hummers that make you pull your hair and I love to do.I make the same mistakes everyone will.Engine light on code bla bla its the flux capasitor.Nope converter broke down stopped up the tail pipe. But I do so love the guy that wants to know but tells you how wrong you are,He will get laid off first.Companys have to profit or they fail.My shop checks rework I make sure mine is at near 0.Lunch, first thing in morning last at night, day off as long as its gone.
But they do eat rework and insurance and van cost and and and and.As long as you and your company are ok with your travel keep on keeping on if not move on.

duo
sometimes in troubleshooting trees, partial or complete teardowns are necessary to facilitate testing on individual components
for example a toyota FBC with a code "C0"
at some point in the tree you have to take out the card, all the connections, the busses on the IGBTs' that put them in parallel, remove each from the heatsink, and test individually
but they may be good and all that was for naught
if one or more are bad you have to check every power connection in the truck for voltage drop including the drive motor still not find anything and have to monitor operator driving habits for abuse as those IGBT's are sensitive to overloading

so to say you know exactly what is wrong before testing was done is presumptuous and foolish and personally i hate when ppl give time frames b4 ive had a chance to diagnose a single wire
in MY experience
techs know the right way to test and replace components
the other guys "playing mechanic" are out there basically guessing for the most part
weed out the parts swappers and youll watch profits go through the roof GPS or not

EVEN WORSE is when some1 IN management goes out,runs into a customer with an issue, and says "o yeah thats not a problem justin can come fix this in five minutes"
then i get there and i have to inform the guy
"no im sorry but the diagnostics will take roughly 1-2 hours and if its what i think it is its gonna be another 2-3 hours to fix it"

how is that my fault if the customer goes nuts after that?

remember if youre mad about the people you have out representing your company YOU hired them!
its still managements fault for not finding, hiring, and training qualified techs
if they make a mistake WHOS responsibility was it to ensure that person knew what he/she is doing before they were even dispatched????
dont give every1 who fills an app out a set of keys to a van

this job is addictive ! i,m on holiday this week but always answer the phone if one of my customers ring or if one of my workmates is in my area,lost, trying to find someplace.i like my job but can,t switch off. my wife goes mad

You know this discussion could go off into many different directions, Flat rate, rework, state laws, honesty etc.
From what I have seen there are people that have mechanics tools that can change leaky hoses, change mufflers and install a new water pump. Then there are technicians which in my experience make up about 1 out of 25 people who call themselves mechanics. They are phenomonal at what they do. They can troubleshoot anything. Many customers want to know what the hourly rates are but what does it matter if a technician can troubleshoot and fix a truck in 20 minutes when the mechanic spends 3 hours on it and is still lost.
Sorry to say that I see a lot of misdiagnosis both with our company as well as our competitors. How many times have you seen a transmission problem misdiagnosed where the mechanic detects a little burn smeel to the fluid and condemns the transmission or worse yet when the truck has no power because of a misadjusted inching rod and they say the transmission is junk.
It is easy to tell that a lot of people on this forum are proud technicians and are adddicted to it. But put yoursel in management's shoes once in a while and we have to put up with the rework/mistakes/misdiagnoses with the other 24 mechanics and worse yet most of those 24 already know everything anyway. Those will say that yeah you adjusted the inching valve and get the truck to move, but it still needs a transmission.
How about the mechanics that want to take something apart to see whats wrong with it. The technician will never take anything apart until he knows what is wrong with it.

Reply to Duo on his "rework" topic;
I agree with you on most techs still expect to get paid on rework with no repercussions, however in our company it works like this; you do get paid for rework, but it gets typed in the system as rework which is then a percentage category in your performance review. So in the long run, the tech pays for his rework. Myself and some ( not all ) techs underneath me will do what it takes to not bill the company for rework time. IE.. use the lunch time, work late to cover the time etc. While we strive for "0" rework, shtuff does happen. I will generally get a call when there is rework. I'll call the tech for input, and offer support if it turns out to be a problem.

Duo, Thank you for joining our discussion. I am glad to read things from a managers side. I read what mean by pressuring your coworkers to do their job, but isn't it a managers job to "motivate" their work crew? If your so called one or two workers are taking advantage of the system why not just fire them instead of making the rest of your work crew pay for one or two techs with bad work ethics or lack of skills. Mass floggings do tend to bring down moral.

Remember the customer always comes first and the rest will all fall into place after that.

We may not get paid for travel, but don't worry....we resent the fact we don't get paid for travel.

GPS was ment to be a baby sitter first and sold as a direction finder to service techs.Do I have problems finding some customers But I dont go there often.Gps we had normaly sent us the way the horse and buggy took before there was good roads.I have also seen guys that say I took the oil pan plug out and oil is going everywhere what am I going to do.You know the ones that call you 3 to 4 times a day wanting to know how to fix a lift and then tells you why you are wrong.They normaly stay till
stuff freezes over.If you think your getting the shaft move on I dont need anyone to help me with job issues Ill take care of my self.As far as pay I can do that to.

rework, warranty (used trucks), and mistakes can be billed back to service and sales like any other customer
you take those and claim them as losses

not only that standing behind your work (as a company) when there is a problem reinforces you commitment to quality which in turn makes the company more profitable through customer retention

if a techs failure rate is so bad that its cutting into the bottom line, how long will you really have to worry about that guy being around for anyway?

as a person who has intimate knowledge of his area (METRO NYC) i could tell you how long it will take you to get to point B from point A within 5 minutes factoring in time of day (10 miles can take well over an hour around here in a commercial van)
GPS is for the suits who dont know how far A and B are away from each other what roads to take and what traffic to expect

This discussion reminds me of my 2 favorite "business" songs. The first is "You get what you give" by the New Radicals and the 2nd is "Money changes everything" by Cyndi Lauper.
I am from management and do agree that there are some not so nice companies and some no so honest employees. My own experience has shown me road techs that call in and they are 60 miles away from where they say they are, one that made 300 copies on OUR, not his, customers copy machine, tell us that the van is broken down so they don't have to work that day, use their van for personal errands, use their van to deliver beer kegs to a party (really good advertising) etc.etc.etc. I'm sure that there are some that wonder what WE are doing wrong, but I would guess that many others have the same stories and worse.
Some of the things that you may not like, such as GPS, were probably instituted due to less than honest employees. My suggestion would be to get on their back and make them change if you don't like what they force management to do.
Business-wise I have no problem with a union, but personally I do. I don't want to make the same amount of money as a contributor to my company as a taker does and I certainly wouldn't appreciate the meager $.37 cost of living raise that everyone else gets. I would rather work for a small honest and get my $1.50 per hour raise when the taker gets nothing or maybe $.25. By the way if you have never gotten a $1.50 per hour raise-or more-try working for a smaller company.
About 20 posts ago I asked why it was OK for a tech to collect full pay for rework/call back/mistake when the company isn't collecting a penny and there was not a hint of a response. That's what is known as give and take.

I hate to get in the union talk I live in a wtw state.If the pay isnt there more to next job your 401 will follow you.If the management *** move on.On average you will change jobs every 5 years.I have worked same one for 11.When can 35 to 40 dollars and hour seem right to put dashboards in and plug 3 to 4 harness plugs in.I knew a man that had that job but it went to mexico.$30000 for a new car I dont see how they make any money on them at all.I get paid very well for the area im in.I dont jockey a desk just a van.I know men that can given a few weeks do my job as well as I do.They are gearheads driving trucks working lines ect.What about fuel control.Let them get the information wont take them long.Well ac trucks have more programing.They are cracking factory systems to not have to buy the 500 to $700 programers on the market.After 11 years in this Iv learned a lot.Put a good man with me for a few weeks and he will know how to figure his way out 90% of the time. Dont get me wrong Iv seen men who didnt know spit come in and work for a while who said they have been doing this for 25 years they also didnt want to learn.We as single members can be replaced.The best you can do is make it hard for them to find a tech with the information you have.After all information is still king of this trade.Not skill.

I know what you mean, I now work for a union shop and the difference in general work environment quality is night and day. I think that employers forget that a union contract can benefit both sides. With the current economy and the temptation to cut overhead costs by constantly shifting benefit guidelines and workplace standards union representation seems the only choice left when it comes down to putting food on the table for a blue collar guy.

I watched our outfit go from free health care and paid travel, change to paid health care and unpaid travel time. And that was the tip of the iceberg; our 401k plan changed to our employer only wanted to deposit their match once a year witch turned your 401k into a glorified tax free saving account.( wait.....my saving account interest made more for me on average!) And don't forget the GPS units!!! They they were for dispatching efficiency, yeah right, six months later several guys were fired some for less than a quarter hour dispute. IMHO that was a tool to weed out the people who did their job well but management had a personal vendetta to remove the employee instead of using there fine management skills to better direct ones talent in a more productive manner. This is what happens when you have no union or a weak union.



"If one demands respect he should be responsible enough to give respect in return. To abuse this rule will only lead to a resentful relationship."

ahhh, he probably did not speak the right language to get the higher paying job, in Miami... you HAVE to be able to speak to the customer's employees....

(says someone born and raised in Miami for 45 years, now living in NC....)

another sad RTW VS unionized story

my uncle was a union HVAC guy up here for 25 years
he made with overtime over 100k

he moves to south florida (west palm/ ft lau area)
no one would pay him more than 15 an hour even in miami
his experience didnt mean anything
which is scary when youre talking about a skilled labor position

nrtw. org/ rtws.htm
this has a map of unionized vs RTW states
right to work seems like a good idea up front
but in the end it keeps wages low and only really benefits large corporations and rich people
not surprisingly RTW states seems to follow RED/BLUE state lines (rep/dem)

im based on long island but work the tristate area (lower NY, northern NJ, and western CT)

funny story about a union guy in a RTW state
my buddy is a CWA (Communications Workers of America) telecom installer in NYC and LI 90% of his work is prevailing (36- 60 and hour)
he was subbed out on a installation in NC
they day the install was to begin the ceiling collapsed
as the GC was flippin out cause of the obvious shoddy work the ceiling guys did my buddy walked up and said "thats what you get when you use non-union labor"
the GC flipped again but in the end he knew my buddy was right
you pay the premium for union guys cause "theyll do it right, the 1st time"

Justinm thanks for your reply, the post was very informative. Are you a city or an upper state tech? Anyhow it sounds like you found a real sweet spot up there in NY. Can you PM me with some details I'm thinking about moving.

I just want to make enough to fill my own gas tank up, and have a pizza + beer at the end of the week and not have to tell my friends no when they want to venture out for the weekend because my employer can't charge portal to portal, witch I think is a fair compromise between having your tech give up travel and the customer paying too much. I was hoping someone in a management position would post and tell us why portal to portal travel charges are not considered. This practice would allow us to get paid for all travel but the ride home unless its more than a 1/2 hour.

Does anyone have some data on right to work states i would like to know which ones are and aren't. Just to compare.

they day they put autopilot in my van is they day they can stop paying me for travel
other than that im a driver when im not swinging a wrench and expect to be paid for that service (map reading is a skill in itself apparently cause we have put new guys in vans that get lost 3 blocks from the shop)
i expect to get paid since my company is getting paid for it

Connecticut is a unionized state
right to work states take advantage of cheap unskilled labor which gets me nuts

prevailing wage in NY for a crane operator 55 and hour + the "stamp" which is pension, heath care, and other benefits that cost the company owner about another 35-40 an hour

prevailing wage in florida for the same job is about 20 and hour you do the math
and i bet the florida rate that the company gets paid isnt much diff than the ny company

you can top out as a forklift mechanic (non union) here at about 35 an hour + benefits and get travel paid
if i go on a prevailing job its 44 and change + the stamp (operating engineer class c "field tech")

Nicely put Roadrat. It seems like in this industry you have a 50/50 chance of getting paid for travel time. I seem to think that some dealerships don't pay at least a 1/2 hour of travel each way; while others don't pay 1 hour each way. If your lucky all travel is paid. Is this per state regulations or a Mfg./Corporate thing and how much money Is your company really saving by using a standard like this. Is a few thousand dollars a year really worth destroying your employees moral?
As far as I'm concerned unhappy employees make unhappy customers. A company focused on a customers well being first will bring home the bacon every time in the long run. You may lose or break even with a customer for some time but that customer will renew its maintenance contracts and buy its new machines from you because they know your service is the best. Customers don't like to be nickeled and dimed and your employees don't like to forfeit travel time, your customers are paying for it anyhow.

I wonder if:
The guy that drives the Fire Truck, does his pay start when he get's to the fire?
The UPS guy, does he only get paid when comes out of the truck and brings in a package or pick one up?
The Law officer, does he get paid only when he is out of the car doing his duty?
The people who deliver the mail, do they get paid only when they are "stuffing" mail boxes?
How about the ambulance driver, only when loading or unloading a patient?
The guy who brings fuel to a gas station, does he get paid only when he is dropping fuel?
Let us not forget the garbage truck driver, does he get paid only when he tips a dumpster or the dude on the back throws a bag on
How about the guy from the water dept. who comes out and cuts off the water cause you didnt pay your bill, does he only get paid when he turns the the valve?
I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.
I would venture to say they get paid for driving, Then why the **** would a Road tech be expected to drive for nothing?
I would like to have someone in management explain to me why they would. I don't get it , where did this mentality come from, wait.. I know the answer!! from an IDIOT manager!!! who gets a bonus for his big numbers at the end of the month!!!
Just my 2 cents, or as Ed would say "In my humble opinion"

Yes I quit working on forklifts. I now run a local parts dept. and even though the scenery doesn't change I am still able to find my new profession just as rewarding. Trust me when I'm having a bad day I just remind myself of changing lift chains on an Raymond model 85 in 90degree weather; on the contrary you can't beat a service call that requires pulling the E-Stop out once in a while.

For the rest of us don't let these penny pinching times get you down. Every company out there is aware of the current economy and gas prices aren't making things any better, we are all attempting to stretch each dollar a little further. The grass isn't always greener, but a change of scenery and a fresh start can give you a renewed enthusiasm about your career.