You are right dan m but there will always be those that are unable to equate employee investment with profit. When I was an active trainer, I was often told by potential customers there was no way they were going to pay that much to train an employee considering the employee already could operate the forklift. Some managers equate the ability to put a machine in motion to operator competence. The figures in some of the posts in this forum could be used to "train" some managers.