A 80% battery is just that an 80% chunk of lead and steel worth about 2 to 3 hours of hard use before it needs recharging. I have sent out batteries out for cleaning , load test and acid adjustments. The battery company took as many a three batteries to make one good one rated at 80%. They also informed me as to the limitations of a 80% battery. I ended up having to pretty much replace all the batteries where I was the maint mananger. Replaced with DEKA batteries. Paid a little more but got it back in longer service.

Hi Don.
I am also in forklift battery recon businss in Korea. The quality issue of a battery is related to understanding of the indice such as CCA, RC ,Volt or Specific Gravity. We know that volt or SG indice is not sufficient for judging the quality of a battery. We are using RC value as a standard for judging it. RC( reserve capacity) concept is very helpful in offer of warraty. We are using RC check method instead of Volt or SG check before and after recons.
In our case individualized cell of 2volt is connected to each computer. Conventional recon machine is using just one current 48volt or 36volt by serial connection. We connect each cell to each computer. The computer tells exactly every cell's state after discharge. After recon process, we know for sure how good the cell is and how good the battery in total is. I think this kind of new battery checksing system is needed. You may see more vids on Youtube under title, "forklift battery reconditioning"-individual cell treatment system.

I recondition and sell used batteries, We market these as having 80% or better capacity with a 6 month warranty. As stated above we do not suggest that these are put into a high use application or a freezer.
We replace any cell that will not make it to 1.7v on each cell on a six hour test and we adj the gravity only when needed. We have a lot of return customers.

Mike1234;
After point and counterpoint I think that we are now on the same page.
I'm not sure how many guys out there sell forklifts and rash cream but we might be talking about the same guy.

Your not talking about the guy who sells rash cream are you? There is a guy on Ebay with 100% positive feedback and right along side of reconed forklifts, he's selling rash cream! I saw that and thought how does this guy manage to sell either one of those 2 things?! If you needed a forklift would you buy from a guy selling ointments? And if you had a rash would you buy the cream from a guy selling forklifts?!!
So your point about ebay ratings is spot on accurate.
As for rebuilt, I would agree that what most dealers sell is not rebuilt. I do think that a battery company in Michigan does cut into each cell, I could be wrong but I think they do. I know most dealers don't buy from them though because the cost is too high.
I don't know specifically how Midwest's warranty works, but we routinely warranty trucks and batteries across the country. It's a parts only warranty and the customer pays for everything else. Our warranty is usually 6 months though, not a year. Bottom line, if the battery we sell or the lift we sell is a quality product, and we do our homework and we do all the needed repairs, then the warranty should be a mute point.
I would agree though that saying "rebuilt" is a play on words and is a little less than truthful to say the least.

I wouldn't put much weight in an E bay rating. There is a guy that sell "reconditioned"trucks- call that used with a paint job, on E Bay that has a 100% rating and if you were to Google his or his company's name you would find 15 or more pages with not only negative opinions of him or his company, but instances where his company has been fined by the US government,
I don't have a problem with the word reconditioned in referring to a battery but I have a huge problem with the reference of rebuilt. The only way to rebuild a battery would be to cut into every cell. I usually use the analogy of a 12 cylinder engine with 500,000 miles on it- just because you re-ringed 2 pisons to stop it from smoking doesn't mean the same thing as rebuilding the entire engine..
As far as Midwest is concerned, if he sells his trucks on E bay and offers a 1 year warranty, exactly how does that work when the end user is located 1500 miles away and exactly what is warranteed. Sounds like the classic tell people what they want to hear story to me that proliferates in a down economy- just like the guy that sells "rebuilt" batteries.

Well "rebuilt" is one thing, reconditioned is what I referred to.
The batteries aren't simply "checked as good" and re-sold. Often times cells are replaced, acid levels are adjusted, the battery is cleaned and re-painted, new cables are installed. Granted that is not what most people would consider rebuilt but it is reconditioned. I trust that many of the same people who take issue with reconditioned batteries sell reconditioned forklifts all the time. What exactly makes a reconditioned forklift any better than a used forklift?
The answer is all the same things that make a reconditioned battery better than a simply used battery. They are checked for problems, repaired as needed and repainted and they cost half as much. I would go so far as to say that the quality of recon batteries I've seen over the years far exceeds the quality of recon forklifts I've come across.
I know Gib in Indiana sells an excellent product and I've seen a few other dealers that do a great job but most dealers selling a reconditioned lift are simply selling a cheap paint job and a tune up. And maybe battery dealers are the same, I don't know. I just know that the batteries we sell are obtained from excellent, reputable vendors and our customers are happy with their purchase.
As to the original post on this thread, I contacted Midwest Lift through their website and they claim the negative comment on their google page stems from a guy in OH who dropped his forklift 4 feet from the loading dock and tried to turn it back in on their 30-day money back promise. The very dangerous condition was that it caught fire. They point to their 100% positive feedback rating on ebay.
But as far as batteries are concerned, our typical customer calls up and says they need to get their truck up and running again without spending $4500. Most if not all of them use their lift less than 2 hours a day. In these cases, a new battery is a waste of money. The 80% recon battery will last a long long time at only 2 hours a day use, a few times a week. And for that, $2200 is a much better deal.

I would also wonder if there is such a thing as any information showing a "rebuilt" battery's energy consumption to recharge to level where it will be of 80% charge after 4 hours operation to be any different than a "checked as good but used" battery's energy consumption to acquire the same level of charge/useful operational hours. I think if I saw such figures and knew them to be testable and accurate, I might conclude there was some value in what Mike1234 had to offer.

Mike1234; Any of us can sell a used battery that tests out at 80%. The difference is that we call it "used" and I suspect that they are way less expensive than a "rebuilt" battery. Just curious, besides cosmetics and cables what is "rebuilt" on a "rebuilt" battery. I've heard some people say thay they actually cut open the cells and rebuild each cell. I've been asking people for decades if there is such thing as a "rebuilt" battery and have yet to find anyone other than the people that sell them believe that there is.
You know, most of us also sell used forklift trucks, but I don't think that people that buy them consider that those of us that sell them are "providing a valuable service".

I guess I don't understand all the animosity toward reconditioned battery dealers.
It's really very simple:
A local customer should not spend $4000+ on a new battery that they only use an hour or two a day.
Why not spend $2,200 on a 5 year old battery that tests out at 4 hours 80%+ with a warranty?
We have sold hundreds of recon batteries since 2004, and we have warranty work on about 5% of them.
If a customer calls and needs 3 recon batteries because they run 3 shifts and need to swap them out twice a day, we tell them they are wasting their money, they need to buy new.

Recon battery suppliers/dealers are everywhere. They provide a valuable service to their customers. Plain and simple.

Brass Tacks,

Totally agree with what you stated, our company aligned ourselves with one battery/charger supplier. There was a mutual trust between us and honesty. When they reconed a battery/charger they did all the things you listed and back up their products with a 1 year warranty adn never hesitated to absorb the expense if & when a warranty issue arised.

As you stated an electric truck should never be recommended for an application that is utilized less than 1.2 to 2 hours per day in my humble opinion due to the sulfation issue you mention or with those 110 or 22v 16 hour chargers.

Regards,
"Cheeky" John R

It looks like neither side on this issue is making any progress convincing the other very well.
The thing that leave me unconvinced are:
1. I have seen extremely few new batteries of any manufacturer fail during the warranty period.
2. I have NEVER seen a battery fail to the point where it had to be replaced during the warranty period.
3. I haven't heard of anyone who I would consider legitimate players in the industry sell either the renewed or rebuilt or desulphation battery service.
4. I haven't seen one reply to the original post that says that they've tried these services and they ahd great luck.
I feel the same way about these services as I do about Chinese no name pallet trucks. If an end user can't justify spendind $400 investment for a decent pallet truck that lasts a ridiculously long then I don't probably don't want them as a customer.
When I sell a truck to a light duty user and need to keep the price low then we sell them a known good used battery from a trusted supplier. Most of the time the customer will ask "how do you know if it is any good" and my reply is always the same. Use it if it lasts 1 hour then you will know it's junk. But it will last you 4 to 5 hours and you know it''s good.

We recondition industrial batteries in-house. We sell to dealers and end users.

Many dealers purchase from various battery companies (dealers/resellers/repair shops), so one cannot put a GOOD/BAD label on a forklift dealer. If you know specifically where the battery was reconditioned then one can be a better judge of actual expected quality.

My Advice:
Ask for references and read the warranty fine print.
Age the battery and secure an load test on the actual battery being sold. If a battery has not been load tested, it is NOT reconditioned. Voltage readings when the battery is installed and when the truck is in use, can show if some batteries are in extremely poor condition, but it is no where near sufficient for determining capacity/longevity.
When reviewing the cell voltages look for relative consistency in numbers and more importantly a 4th hour voltage reading of 1.70 or greater.
There are obviously many other factors that weigh in, but adhere to the above and you will limit your risk.

On the battery renew: The above comment on "Snake Oil" made me chuckle, but I thought it was... fitting. Though I cannot say exactly what is in this magic potion, I can say after a rigorous Q&A session, with the local guy, we were left less than convinced.

As for the use of reconditioned batteries?
80% capacity guarantees a solid 4 hour run time. Yes a reconditioned battery has a shorter life span than new and the engine analogy is... cheeky, but not entirely incorrect. The lower acquisition cost of a recon battery makes it attractive to the extremely light duty users; users who cannot justify purchasing a new battery just so it can sit and sulfate. As long as the supplying dealer is representing the batteries correctly, they are a good niche.

As for the phrase "the root of the end users lack of understanding of proper battery care and very few assign a single person the responsibility for this" BINGO

Steve- Don't really disagree with what you said and agree the root of the end users lack of understanding of proper battery care and very few assign a single person the responsibility for this. And when there are more than one person assigned the responsibility - finger pointing becomes popular. It is true many customers abuse the battery or bought a 110 v charger to charge a 1020 amp battery from a "fly by night" of "lean too" type dealer.

But it is also true that very few customers & sales personnel are trained on proper maintenance and charging techniques. I as a lift truck sales person made it my responsibility to 1 train the end users on proper battery charging and maintenance techniques and worked with our battery supplier to set- up a battery/charger PM program. Customers appreciate this rather than remain loyal rather than feel like someone keeps picking their pockets for their "ignorance"

It is also true that sulfation is removed from the plates in the initial phase of the charging cycle through the initial high amp delivery. And battery service companies at a comparatively attractive price can often remove heavy sulfation via process involving "deep" discharging cycling, acid balancing and stuff like that.

Hope you sell a million - but I'm not sold - sorry.

Hi John,
You seem very well knowledged in the battery business and I assume you do well at it. Unfortunately it is the client who causes the problems with their batteries. By assuming that they take proper care of their batteries by charging them the right amount of time, letting them cool down before use, checking the water and equalizing them (both electrically and pertaining to the acid content) is giving them more credit than they actually deserve. These vehicles are the heart of any distribution center but for the most part are abused just like most humans abuse their own hearts. By not charging them properly and not adding water when necessary they accelerate the sulfating process of the battery. I was at a client yesterday who has 40 forkliftrs, 20 go carts and 20 order pickers. Out of those 80 units 28 had batteries that were dry. Obviously his poor maintenance job has caused those batteries to lose some life. Our job is to come in and rectify the situation they have caused by improper maintenance and charging. Additionally, for those people who do maintain their batteries close to standards, just by actually using the equipment they are causing sulfation. It's just a by product of a battery's use and 80% of battery problems are caused by sulfation.
As for the warranties, statistics show that only 30% of batteries actually reach 48 months. Most warranties at that point are completely useless because of the pro-rated formula used. Not to mention how most battery companies will look for reasons to prove that the battery was not maintained properly so as not to have to replace it. I'm also aware of how some clients will not submit a claim for a battery that didn't last the 5 years because of one reason or another. I know, sounds crazy, but it does happen.
In respect to the lead shedding, it is true that there is very little anyone can do to stop it. However, by allowing the sufate to build up on the cell you're just adding another problem that can reduce the battery life. If you keep the sulfates off and allow the cell to remain softer so it can accept more electricity you'll get more out of it (obviously) as time ticks against it.
I can understand your skepticism because there is definitely a history of "snake oil salesmen" in the battery reconditioning field. Because our process is so innovative and new we accept the challenges ahead of us because we believe in the science behind our process, the necessity of our product and the results of our efforts.