Weichai Power Co Ltd who bought 70% of KION Hydraulics (Linde hydraulics) are owned by the Chinese state. they have a option to purchase more of KION Hydraulics. This is ware all the technology of Linde and Still is. The Chines understand that the market needs more efficient forklifts and hydrostatics are a lot more efficient that torque converter truck. the only reason more companies have not gone Hydrostatic is cost and the fact that Linde who have a quite good system would not sell to other forklift manufactures. The Chinese have said they wanted the KION hydraulic technology and they want to improve the market share of this technology in the rest of Asia. How do they improve this well thats simple Heli the other big Chines forklift company is state owned and all state companies share technology.



Also we did point out that Shandong would purchase KION even though KION said no and had to turn around a couple of day's later and say yes , so we understand the market quite a bit. the market over the next couple of years is in for some major changes not since the Japanese manufactures in the 70's has the market seen such a change.If you look at any Chinese manufactured forklift over 6,000kg they are all the same a copy of a TCM , TCM did a deal with one company but when you deal with state companies all state companies get the technology. Weichai Power own 70% of the shares

Dave, I really don't see the MCFA/ Nissan joint venture going past the engine/ fuel system development. The point of it was designing a system that met the strict EPA Standards for California (which are stricter than a Catholic Nun with a 12" ruler!). Even though MCFA is using the Nissan engine/ powertrain. They are at this time building some Nissan machines in Houston. As for the main players here in the US: Taylor is a major large lift Mnf. especially in the south. Since they are built in Mississippi. They're a great lift, but a few are pushing to gain market on them such as Kalmar. They make a fine product, but some of the other large manufacturers are just not there in quality. Such as Royal, Wiggons and a few others. I can talk confidently about the US market and competitors, but really on the dark outside of the US. I enjoy hearing someone that is knowledgable due to we're in a world economy now. Things that happen in Europe affect us also. Keep up the posting!

Posted by Davelift: "The new KION company will with in a couple of years be supplying hydrostatic transmisions to the rest of the chines manufactures."

Since you know everything about Kion, I'd love to hear you clarify this statement.

Hi Bubman yes i would agree with your points MCFA do seem to be doing well in the US with a very strong dealer network. The point i was looking to raise mainly is in Asia in the construction machinery business. Cat chairman has said publically that the performance of Cat construction equipment has to improve at the moment Cat are the global number one and if they are to stay that way they have to compete more in Asia. In India cat was out sold by JCB , and with the chines manufactures doing well in asia and middle east cat will have to look at these markets. As MCFA work with Nissan on engine and other product development can you see MCFA joining the Nissan TCM new company bringing in Junghienrich. By doing this they could have a better chance of keeping up with the new power houses that are being formed in the market. The new KION company will with in a couple of years be supplying hydrostatic transmisions to the rest of the chines manufactures. NACCO work with HC and Briggs will be another major force. Linde like have been pointed out don't do very well out side Europe around 75% of linde sales are in Europe , again Junghienrich majority of sales are in europe they are trying to improve their us sales with the tie up with MCFA Like you have pointed out in the US there are only four main manufactures in the smaller trucks and three if you were to include Taylor in the larger trucks.

I will say this for Dave, sounds like he has a good feel for the European market. But I think that he's way off when it comes to the North American Market. I've been in this business for over 26 years and one thing that I can tell you, the players and shakers in the UK are completely different than the ones in the US. As for Caterpillar Inc. out of Peoria, not even concerned about the fork lift business. MCFA has done a great job of bringing the manufacturing back state side. Orders are way up. Joint venture w/ Mitsubishi, Cat & Nissan to develop new fuel system that meets EPA's new standards have been a success. Now Jungheinrich has joined MCFA with the Narrow Isle product. As you can read in this issue of Forkliftaction.com MCFA is expanding their Houston plant by 40 %. MCFA is also now manufacturing their larger lifts (DP70) state side instead of over seas. As for the big players here......you do not hear anything of all of the machines ya'll talk about over the pond! In the US it's Cat, Mitsu, Hyster, Yale, Raymond, Crown and Toyota. Everyone else has very little market share and doesn't have much of a presence on the dealership, sales, parts or service side.

Ok Dave I think we should agree to disagree about the tone of the post title, for the record I am not a Linde manager far from it I don't even work for Linde.
All the best with your future project

Herald

First i have never worked or had a connection to Linde or any KION company and have no ax to grind. The post was not aimed at KION but at the hole market. KION has like i said done a deal with Shandong and only a couple of day's after forkliftaction not me asked them about this. To me by declining to comment on what it called rumours and and speculation shows that KION are in panic at the moment. The deal was not done over the last couple of day's but has been going on for some time.

It was both Herald and partsguy5 that said i was wrong while in fact i was shown to be right purely by the fact KION have sold 25% of KION Group and 70% of KION Hydraulics to a Chinese state owned company.

I have said in my post on this subject that Linde has made some very good innovation on the electric side of the forklifts and if there has been any innovation in IC trucks made by forklift manufactures please let me know. I said all manufactures of IC forklifts have not been innovative. Again it was both Herald and partsguy5 who like they like to point out our new truck is suposed to be a copy of a Linde i only pointed out the differences of our truck to Linde.

I would suggest that both Herald and Partguy5 work at Linde probably in management and don't like the fact that KION is being sold to the chinese.


Linde have all ways tried to sell there trucks on their technology that they claim and in some areas rightly so that this is better. Now As most chinese companies work together to control a market other comapnies will infact use Linde technology so how do you both expect Linde to sell say a 7,000kg truck for around $58,000 when a chinese company with the same technology will sell for $45,000.


I also said it would be good for the customer now because companies who are in forklift manufacturing and service are now going to have to be more innovative if they want to succeed and charge a premium for there equipment.




KION shareholders have been looking to sell part of KION from last year i have known about this personally since about Feb this year as i friend of mine told me. I have not put this out until this week when the story broke so how come i have a ax to grind. If none of this was true and KION in fact had not agreed to sell to Shandong then yes i would agree with you that this is the case but the truth is KION have sold and Shandong will end up with all KION group

Well said Herald.
I do believe he has a ax to grind.

So what your saying is the Chinese will eventually buy all of Kion (which they probably will) and then get rid of the brand but keep the technology and produce a cheaper alternative ? All within the next ten years. Why would they want to do that, you seem to have a vendetta against Linde are you a ex employee who now feels the need to spout rubbish on this forum?

Most Companies decline to comment on 'rumours and speculation' whilst negotiations are on going, but you will know that being involved with a company bringing a new innovative truck to the market place lol

the Shandong deal has been done they will buy 25% of KION for 738 Million here comes the start. They will have 25% of kion forklift business and 70% of the Hydraulic business


Well Herald the rubbish i put seems to be right Linde will be gone in less than 10 years. There will be so many hydrostatic chines trucks hitting the market now Linde won't be able to compete at the price they will come in at.



What i find funny is yesterday KION has declined to comment on what it says are "rumours and speculation" and today Shandong purchases 25% of KION Group and 70% of KION Hydraulics so to the people who said it was rubbish and i need to do a little bit more research i dont think i do and what ever i put on here is not rubbish.




all good for customers because prices will drop.

Small typo in bthe above - it should read "get over your prejudices....etc"

The sooner the Chinese take over Linde and shut the UK planrt the better if the shocking unreliability, service-unfriendly design and rubbish build quality of the 12 tonne Linde I'm unlucky enough to own is representative of what they do there. Still what else can you expect from the factory that gave the world Lansing Bagnalls complete with factory -fitted oil leaks?
As I've said before, prejudices and accept the fact that manufacturers like Hangcha build a **** good machine at very competitive costs and they are the future of the forklift industry.

just because a company say's there order book is up doesn't mean they are selling more trucks it just means they are getting more money for the trucks they are selling. both Goldman Sachs and KKR have said they are not willing to put more money into KION also as there is quite a bit of debt to refinance next year and they wont refinance this them selfs and to go to the markets would mean they would pay much hire charges than they are paying now which is what is moving KION into loses then they have to find another way to do this they had hoped to float the business to raise the capital to do this but this can't now be done. So they have had to go to China to get the capital needed by selling 25%. If you think that Shandong will invest 700 mill and stop at 25%. they won't they want more and they have the capital to get more that is that.


We will see next year when KION release there results and when Shandong own over 35% of the equity. Goldman Sachs and KKR paid 4 billion for KION now they are selling 25% for 700 million so the value is 2.8 Billion not a bad loss. wants Shandong gets hold of 25% the rest is worthless because Shandong will use pressure to move technology out of KION who have made some quite innovation in electric trucks not Diesel there diesels are quite basic and expensive like all the other manufactures. In fact what innovation has happened in any diesel truck over the last 50 years.


As for this copy of a linde truck we are doing it is quite funny Like i have said before it is about as much as a Linde as a Mercedes is a Audi the only thing it has in common with Linde it the transmission which comes from Sauer. Sauer are much more advanced than Linde in the Hydrostatic systems and now Linde have had to Copy there system that was around over twenty years ago by going fixed displacement motors. The new truck we are to do is much smaller and lighter than a Linde its designed on a totally diffident platform Linde claim to use modular construction if it was a modular constructed truck it would have modular s like we have we can strip a truck if a fault was to arise in under 1 hour that is take the engine out no other manufacture can do this. So yes in a way we are just like a Linde We are the same shape we use the same engine and of course we use modular construction. How can a hydrostatic run through gears it was like i said a semi hydrostatic truck and then they went to fixed displacement motors to create a full hydrostatic truck. In fact the Linde 10 -18 ton truck had to have a total top end redesign to stop overheating of the new engine also they are selling that many of them Merthyr Tydfil will be closed by next summer and all big trucks and container handling trucks will be made in Xiamen by the end of next year


As for the truck the first ones will be tested later this year with customers who have all ready stated interest. Also there has been a number of interested from established manufactures who would be willing to help with the new venture so you will be seeing the new truck quite soon.

Dave you say Linde say they are shifting more trucks on paper, but you say they are not, based on the fact that nobody is, that's a bit of sweeping statement.

The German factory have more orders this year compared to last year and the order books a full until next march.
Now that is a fact if you choose to believe it well that's up to you.

Linde have been using hydrostatics for longer than you suggest, yes the 351,350 and earlier trucks used reduction gearboxes but it was still hydrostatic drive through a reduction box. The newer generation can do away with the reduction gears due to the use of electronic control.

The headline to your original post is very misleading, obviously the owners of Kion are both investment banks and would be looking to sell on when the time is right, that's there line of business. But selling part of Kion to china is not selling it off as a whole.

Again I look forward to seeing your 'Linde ' based truck any time soon
Herald

Partsguv 5


if you read the article it say's that KION declined to comment on the story about shandong. If this was not true then just say that. second there is no company who manufacture forklifts who's sale are up on last year Kion sales might be up in some areas but on a hole they are down. You don't need to be partnered with a Chinese company to do business there until KION bought Baoli they did not have any partner there but had two big production plants there junghienrich have production in China with no partner. Also the point about cat is they have been out of production of forklifts for years in fact they have never really been in production of forklift before mits deal Dawoo produced for them. Cat know they are in the construction equipment business and with the large chinese companies such as Sany , XCMG and others now becoming more popular CAT know they have to put there full backing behind this industry to stay in front. JCB out sold them by a mile in India. So ware would you suggest i did some research from , If you must know i do quite a lot of research into most major companies in this industry

Daveilift,

Do a little more research before you post.
Read the second article in today's news section of ForkliftAction regarding KION.

Regarding Cat Inc the have not been involved in the production of forklifts for years.

Also in other posts I have seen with you mentioning Chinese trucks in order to do business in China you need to be partnered with one of their companies to do business there per their regulations.

Hi Herald which bit do you think is rubbish. The points i made are all facts. KION have been talking to Shandong about a sale they have not denied this , Yes KION did lose net 93 Million , yes they did also pay 16 Million for Voltas its all in there annual report. also KION are not selling more trucks than they did last year no one is

Also other manufactures are not going to be able to compete with the new companies that are being formed they will struggle if the don't move there business together , you might see Clark Hyundai and Crown work more together , also cat don't want to be in forklifts they know there business is construction equipment Mitts are just not big enough to compete look what happened to Almar after Briggs changed from CAT it Shut.


Clark have bough Omega to try to get into big trucks again this is not working out as they might like and Heli are to launch a G series truck next year that is very good.

So which point did you think was rubbish. Also our new truck is to be built over the next couple of month its as much like a Linde as any other hydrostatic truck and in fact its only in the last ten years that Linde have moved to fully Hydrostatic for years they have been a semi hydrostatic truck working though a range of gears now they use fixed displacement motors.


Also KION management would prefer a bid from Volkswagen but VAG won't pay the money that Goldman or KKR want or need.

Dave, aren't you trying to build a truck a lot like a Linde?

If you follow the history of lift trucks you'll notice a pattern- they follow the auto industry when it comes to technology. Everything from engines to electronic ignitions, starting & charging systems all started out being very industrial- now look at them - everything is a cross over from the auto industry.

The industry does this because of one reason- economics- period. It's cheaper to purchase the parts they need from the auto industry then to manufacture their own parts- makes sense.

Since this has been the case in the past, we can only assume it will continue in the future. With government regulation continuing to put a strong hold on the industry, it only makes sense that the various manufactures will pool their resources by joining forces for the sake of- you guessed it- economics. As in the auto industry, various manufacturers join forces for a few years- only to disband the joint venture at some point to start another one with somone else practically the same day. It's been happening for years. It's now our turn to be introduced to this mish-mosh.

Just like cars all basically look alike, do the same things & have very similar technology, our industry will follow suit. You won't be able to tell forklifts apart except for their badging in a few years. They will all have shared technology to keep R & D as low as possible, in the process taking away any edge one has over another.

Blimey Dave you must have friends in high places, or do you just make this rubbish up?
By the way how is the truck of the future going, not seen many out there yet