An end user who buys a forklift unseen over the internet needs their head examining. They have no idea of specs, condition or reputation. To pay the freight to return it would be a huge portion of the purchase price, if available.
Dealer to dealer over the internet sales are more common because of knowledge and reputation.
Talk of a code of ethics and rules and regulations is pure fairy tales. Who and why will support it? What competive advantage will it give a dealer? Non when a cheapie charlie dealer is willing to undercut and lie.
The best might be a system like Amazon or Ebay with reviews and seller ratings.
Lastly why would a customer buy off the internet when he can get a comparable deal from a local dealer who can demo the equipment?

This is where an association w/ a verified code of ethics would benefit both buyer & seller. A clear definition of what is being sold, what exactly the warranty (if any) would cover, etc.

I've been asking my client base this question since this thread began. It's interesting in the fact that if the customer was never burned on a purchase, then paying a premium for a used lift doesn't interest them- cheapest price wins. But, if they've been burned- paying a premium is- in their words "cheap insurance".

Ditto with Salesmasters comment. Just knowing the original owner of the machine will probably confirm the hours are more than shown- our Hyster dealer has helped me often on a considered purchase. Occasionally you see a quirk though. I purchased a 2000 model H120XM a couple of years back (Perkins diesel) that hit our local Craigslist. Rental specs, and 850 true hours! It still had the original seat, SP tires and even the light bulbs!! The truck was not hurt other than having to reseal most of the hydraulic cylinders from hardened seals that had been unused for a few years. A large camper outlet had purchased it new to unload inventory as it arrived. A couple of other thoughts...Why so many hydraulic lines replaced? Did they get damaged during operation? Also, you have a Fortis model, so it is defiantly EEC and would have history stored. My biggest concern is the oil leak and the fact that your service company is willing to lose you as a customer to avoid making the leak repair. You didn't say, but you probably have an LP unit and that means a GM 4.3. These guys can be very challenging when trying to isolate an engine oil leak. There are several variations. The common leaks are the front crankshaft seal- requiring a new composite front cover, the oil pan "gasket" and the rear engine seal. It's usually better to address all three if you commit to pulling the engine to replace the suspected leaking rear seal.

You need to call and speak to the service manager or sales department and just give them the serial number and what you want, the stupid field tech was just lazy and did not want to go the extra mile, I work for a Hyster dealer, it takes 2 min to run a serial number in the Hyster network site.

Mdmetalman: I think you had the dealer confirm that what you really bought was an hour meter with a truck attached to it as the rear main seal apparently has enough hours on it to qualify to leak.
As far as additives- what do you have to lose by trying it- As you will only still have to repair it if it fails?

I have no input on the additive- I'm not a big fan of additives. I would try checking the engine's breather assy (PCV valve, breather vent, etc) for blockage. I've seen breathers coke up & the internal pressure will eventually find the weakest link, which is sometimes the rear main seal.

As far as the hours on the machine, I never trust a used lifts hour meter.

Thanks everyone for your input. I spoke with a Hyster Dealer and they could not help me on info on service done or who owned it before. I was told by the company I purchased the truck from that they would suggest adding MACS a oil additive to help leak on rear main seal. They are saying rear main seals do not get replaced until around 8000 to 10,000 hrs they believe that the seal is dry and would seal up adding a additive to the oil. What are all your thoughts on adding something to oil to slow up leak??

I'd have to agree with salesmaster- having a dealer come in & give an assessment by accessing the on-board computer would be a good idea. Now that the machine is yours at least you'd know where you stand with it & could budget accordingly.

The only thing I can think of as far as the leak is that you state that it has always leaked ( at least a little) as long as you've owned it but now it's getting worse- perhaps if you read the warranty that specific issue is not covered because of a "pre-existing condition". I have learned the hard way that selling a truck with a known issue which both parties (me & my customer) agree to can turn ugly very quickly when the issue gets worse. Suddenly the lower price they paid is a distant memory. It's because of issues like these I no longer sell forklifts.

I don't know if 25 grand is a high/low price for your unit, maybe someone could chime in & give some guidance in that arena.

MDmetalman, I believe within my opinion and experience you bought a wholesale unit with 12,000 hours which shows 2100 hours, if you really want to know the entire real story about what you bought, call your local Hyster dealer and pay for a full inspection of condition. First thing the Hyster dealer will do is run the serial number which will In turn give them a factory build report. That report will show the dealer who ordered the unit, which customer bought the unit. Then you can contact the selling dealer of the unit with the serial number and speak to service department about service records and hours. I am willing to bet I am right.

Most S120FT units in your part of the country are in 10,000 hour, 60 month applications , paper, auto, ports, machine shops, etc!
It is very uncommon to find used forklifts made in 2007 with 2100 hours. The average or industry benchmark usage is 140 hours per month.

Now I am sure this information will upset a few people in the used truck business. This simple procedure can be done on any lift truck. I'm sure your service company meant no harm, after all they are just going off the hour meter that has flipped over. I always explain to customers to spend the $300-$400 for a dealer OEM inspection before purchasing a used lift truck from a non-selling dealer or used equipment independent. Most late model lift trucks are equipped with a computer which logs hours, transmission miles etc. only the dealer for the brand in question has the laptop software to perform this inspection.

All of these used equipment guys or service companies who sell used equipment, buy there equipment from a wholesaler. 75% of the equipment a wholesaler buys is from leasing companies, banks, and dealers. The dealers have first pick of all off lease equipment from the leasing companies. After the dealers cherry pick the great units to sell in there used equipment department, the tired units are then sold off to wholesales around the country, then sold off to used equipment companies, service companies and export.

Now there are some really great used equipment guys who really know what there buying and selling. They take the time to get the real story, they check compression, transmission pressure, pull wheels and inspect brakes, hub bearings, check fluid lines, verify hours.

But most do not!!!!!!! Hope this helps!

MDmetalman, I believe within my opinion and experience you bought a wholesale unit with 12,000 hours which shows 2100 hours, if you really want to know the entire real story about what you bought, call your local Hyster dealer and pay for a full inspection of condition. First thing the Hyster dealer will do is run the serial number which will In turn give them a factory build report. That report will show the dealer who ordered the unit, which customer bought the unit. Then you can contact the selling dealer of the unit with the serial number and speak to service department about service records and hours. I am willing to bet I am right.

Most S120FT units in your part of the country are in 10,000 hour, 60 month applications , paper, auto, ports, machine shops, etc!
It is very uncommon to find used forklifts made in 2007 with 2100 hours. The average or industry benchmark usage is 140 hours per month.

Now I am sure this information will upset a few people in the used truck business. This simple procedure can be done on any lift truck. I'm sure your service company meant no harm, after all they are just going off the hour meter that has flipped over. I always explain to customers to spend the $300-$400 for a dealer OEM inspection before purchasing a used lift truck from a non-selling dealer or used equipment independent. Most late model lift trucks are equipped with a computer which logs hours, transmission miles etc. only the dealer for the brand in question has the laptop software to perform this inspection.

All of these used equipment guys or service companies who sell used equipment, buy there equipment from a wholesaler. 75% of the equipment a wholesaler buys is from leasing companies, banks, and dealers. The dealers have first pick of all off lease equipment from the leasing companies. After the dealers cherry pick the great units to sell in there used equipment department, the tired units are then sold off to wholesales around the country, then sold off to used equipment companies, service companies and export.

Now there are some really great used equipment guys who really know what there buying and selling. They take the time to get the real story, they check compression, transmission pressure, pull wheels and inspect brakes, hub bearings, check fluid lines, verify hours.

But most do not!!!!!!! Hope this helps!

Mdmetalman,
i believe i would make them give you a copy of what that 90 day warranty covers. In most cases it would cover the power train and engine as most usually do.

As far as this "rental ready" thing they speak of? Well rental trucks have to run and be in good shape too... just because its a rental truck doesn't give them the option to sell or rent a truck that leaks or has in bad condition. Sounds to me like they have already spent more on it than they wanted and they are trying to weasel out of the support they promised. Not to mention they obviously did not check the truck out well enough (or they knew what was going on and dumped it on you all well knowing what was wrong with the truck.)

If the warranty is still valid i would make them do it because if the deny it they are in void of THEIR contract and you can burn em a new one if you know what i mean ;o)

20yrs of business down the drain? that seems strange they would let that go.

I am an end user and purchased a Forklift from our Local Forklift service company that has done service for us for the last 20 years.
They sold us a 2007 Hyster S120FT with 2100 hours for $25,000 as a "Rental Ready Unit" with 90 day warranty. Since the purchase they have had to replace the entire brake system, 5 Hydraulic lines and now the rear main seal is leaking oil all over the floor.
Since we have had this truck we have had an oil leak but now its getting worse. It is still under the 90 day warranty period and I am being told by the company we purchased this truck from the leak is not under the warranty that it was sold as a "Rental Ready" Forklift. Wow now we have a truck that leaks but this local company we have done business with for over 20 years is going to loose all our business from here on out because it was sold as Rental Ready. I agree their needs to be a clear definition when selling or purchasing a forklift.

I do agree that you can't fix stupid. As long as the buyer knows the risk & is willing to take the chance-well- as you said- good luck. The challenge I'm talking about is when a truck is misrepresented by a bottom feeder. I've had multiple customers in the past few years purchase lifts on line after I've advised them of the scammers out there. In the end none of them saved any money after my service calls were completed bringing these hunks of junk back to serviceable condition.

By "educating" the customer we are also "teaching" the scammers what it take to be ethical. I have a problem with that.

One more thing also, I do explain all the differences, point out all the questions to ask! I even go as far to say, go and look at the yard of the company youre buying this unit from or Google Earth it if its out of state and look at their yard. Some of these internet special guys look like a salvage yard or junk yard. Of course I would not say that, to a customer.

The ones I really enjoy talking about are the ones that use the word wholesaler or equipment wholesaler, really. I asked a customer once if he would buy a car from Jose Auto Sales No Credit Needed, the customer answered **** no, I then asked him so why would you consider some internet guy 1200 miles away with no unit records or warranty, the customer then answered, because the unit looks nice and its in the money for what I want.

Just to be clear though, there are some really great used equipment companies that have integrity and honesty. I personally know of some of them.

BB Forks, I certainly respect your opinion! I was just pointing out that within my experience over the last (15) years, one cannot fix stupid. It just cannot be done. Think of it like this, a reasonable person would not go to Macys for clothing and expect to pay Walmart pricing.

Just last week, I was with a customer who thought our service rates were just way to expensive, I work with a rather large dealership. I asked the customer compared to who and what? My rate was $115.000 per hour. The customer explained that he was using an independent for $75.00 per hour. So I asked if this independent had on-site liability insurance, workmens compensation insurance etc. The customer said no, he also explained he knew and understood he was taking the risk! I then asked the customer, if he knew that if someone was hurt on his property from the independent s company, that he would be held liable, he understood the risks he was taking. Now please keep in mind that this was no hole in the wall company, this company has over 100 employees. How do you fix that, you dont. In a very nice way, I told the customer good luck, please call me if I can help, and have a nice day.

This past Friday I was with another mid-size company that has around (12) units, only buys used. The customer asked for a quote on a good late model 6k unit, so I quoted a late model unit with 2300 hours out of our rental fleet for $16,500.00 with a 90 day full warranty. The customer then explained to me that my price was too expensive. The customer also explained to me that he found one on the internet local, for $10,500.00 delivered plus sales tax that was 10 years old, new paint, new tires, 8900 hours, and with no warranty at all. The customer then asked me to sell him my unit for the same price with the warranty and we had a deal. As much as I tried to explain the difference between the two, he did not care. I then asked what were the other dealers quoting, he then explained that we were all around the same area on price. I asked the customer if he knew how much an engine was, if he knew how much a transmission was, he told me no, never thought of it. Again, you cannot fix stupid.

As far as the word recondition, here is the term, to make like new or brought back to like new specifications. This is why I never ever use the word reconditioned.

Yes, everyone is always trying to save a buck or two, but some people just want something for nothing. Those people are meant to buy from the bottom feeders of the business and deserve what they get. With or without some standard or code of ethics, this will always be the case. That is what makes a free market great.

Better Business Bureau
CarFax Reports
Ripoff Reports

The list goes on. One can point out all the questions in the world, again there are some who still want something for nothing.


Yet it still happens, STUPID

Salesmaster- I have to take issue with your post. As professionals, it's our job to educate laypeople about our industry. As an example- the term "Reconditioned"- what an example of a misleading term. To the customer it sounds like the unit has been rebuilt. An inexperienced buyer at a large company, the owner of a carpet store, etc can be easily mislead with this nomenclature.

You speak of bottom feeders- everyone wants a deal. Can you blame someone for trying to save a buck- we all do it. End users don't understand our business- if they did they'd be in our business. Do you understand the intricacies of why one carpet is more expensive than another? Probably not- you rely on the salesman to educate you in the world of carpet. And- if you buy carpet on-line & get screwed, you have no one to blame but yourself. But, if the carpet was misrepresented as being something it isn't, shame on who sold it to you. This is my point.

If a end user wants to purchase a unit & has unrealistic expectations of the deal & some unscrupulous dealer takes advantage of that, it gives the entire industry a bad name. Having an industry standard with a code of ethics which an end user could use as a bench mark to measure his "deal" with would be beneficial for all. End users would understand that buying from a local source really is their best choice.

As for the on-line dealer, I doubt that they would risk a lawsuit in misrepresenting a unit if they were asked specific questions which they'd have to answer in the buying process. My experience has been that end users don't know what questions to ask, nor do they understand the importance of such questions- after all- a lift is a lift- isn't it?

A few remarks from me, basing upon my personal experience.

There are two main types of the customers in online transactions:
- "the refurbishers", who want to get the truck to resell it.
- the endusers, who wants to buy the truck and work with it.

The first want to buy possibly cheapest truck, make the repairs, paintings etc. and sell it as "nearly new"
They don't need the warranty. They need the exact specification, a RELIABLE and possibly detailed technical info about the condition of the truck, the REAL workinghours, etc to enable them to presume the refurbishment costs and the possible margin. Other words, they need the information which sometimes definitely exceeds the endusers requirements.

The enduser, from the other hand, expects the basic (but exact) specification, information about the overall condition of the truck, warranty conditions (the longer, the better), service avalability, location and costs, many nice pictures, the price (I personally hate the tabs "call to get the price" very often visible on the dealers pages), delivery time, informations about the attached documentation (operators manual, certificates, spare parts catalogue etc.).
Very good impression makes the "references" page, where the letters with the positive opinions from the previous customers are visible.
Of course, for the endusers, the "quality levels" markings can be used, like 3,4, or 5 stars or "basic", "premium", "awesome" ;-) but they must be clearly and with all the details defined on dealers page.

To be frank - I don't believe in international or national codes of ethics in sales, because very often the people have different recognition of the ethics in bussiness.
At end of the day, what really counts is the the dealers reliability, clear information and simple honesty of the dealer.
On our (average in size) market in Poland, the information about cheating suppliers is spread very quickly.

I really believe those buyers on the internet think that they have an innate shopping ability and even when they get ripped off they are afraid to admit it. We had a customer who bought a "reconditioned" truck on the internet that left a trail of ATF everywhere they drove it. They called the supplier to no avail so they just parked the truck for a couple of years and then finally decided to pay us to rip the transmission apart and fix the leak.
These are the same people that demand a demo for a week or too from their local dealer or better yet want to "rent" it for a month to see if they like it but then they trust every word the guy tells them that's 1000 miles away.

During my (15) years in the business I have seen some very slime ball deals in the used equipment business via the internet. This has only become worse over the years with all of the e-commerce marketing and machinery websites.

Back in 2003 when I was a (PSSR), I met a guy who was looking for a forklift; I referred him to my new truck salesman. The guy wanted something for nothing. As I recall he only wanted to spend $6,000.00 on a 5,000 lb. cushion tired warehouse unit. He found one over the internet, for $5,000.00 delivered to Phoenix, AZ. The guy calls me to tell me it will not hold a charge, I send my battery company out to his location, bad battery too many bad cells, 48 volt, back then the battery was $5500.00 He cried like a baby. He bought a unit with a very, very nice paint job, only to have a bad battery with (No warranty implied)

When I look at some kind of code of ethics, or policy of ethics, I think to myself (give me a break) really people, lets look at this for a moment.
A very wise man in Las Vegas, NV told me once that several people talk about customer service, Honesty, Integrity, and Empathy, but its a whole different story, when the rubber money hits the pavement running.

I have been in this business (15) years, I do not know it all, nor claim to! What I know for a fact is that 60% of the used equipment only dealers within North America are in fact shady. Fact #2 is that 75% of the equipment that is wholesaled off a (Dealers) yard is total junk!!!!! Beyond repair, bent overhead guards, cracked frames, bent mast, excessive mast wear, smoking engine, jacked up steer axle, cracked block, slipping transmission, etc. The list goes on. There is a reason dealers wholesale off junk units, its a lost cause. Again, not all units are a total loss, I know I have had to get rid of some really nice units to clean up the rental fleet or aged inventory. But that happens once in a pink moon.

But then what does one do with this underserved market of something for nothing people???? I mean lets really look at this for a moment!!! A new 5,000 lb. Pneumatic tired, LPG, name brand forklift depending on brand is around $34,000 +/- ok. So one with common since, would think a great used unit from an OEM Dealer would cost around $18,500.00 +/-
This is where all the bottom feeders come in at $9500.00 for a unit thats (5) years of age with 9000+ hours on it, but wait, it has new tires and new paint and decals. Ohhhhhh, and its reconditioned!!!!! Mr. Customer. Really????

I love having those conversations with people as a commissioned salesman; first off, I do not want that type of stupid business. If someone does not really understand what the word (RECONDITIONED MEANS) then they truly deserve what they get. I just go about my marry way and find me some smart business to capitalize on.

My point would be that, at the end of the day, some people are meant for one another. The guy who wants something for nothing and the used equipment hack that puts new tires and paint and tells the guy its (RECONDITIONED)
I personally know a few used equipment bottom feeders who have been sued in court for using the word (RECONDITIONED) on an invoice!!!!!

YOU CANNOT FIX STUPID!!!! STUPID IS FOREEVER!!!!