Thank you to everyone for contributing to this discussion. Merry Christmas and best wishes to you all for a wonderful year in 2006.

To: TheThing, EasyM, Mikey, and other readers of this discussion forum.

I have been monitoring this "Discussion Forum" since being notified by one of our associates here at TMHU earlier this week. I am somewhat appalled by the many distasteful and rude comments so easily directed toward Toyota, TMHU, USAC, ForkliftAction, and even our main competitor NACCO (Hyster/Yale). Although we here at TMHU fully anticipated some criticism from our competition regarding the validity of the testing procedures, and even more so, the results, I assure you that the tests were designed and conducted with the utmost fairness to all. TMHU is a very respectful organization, with an immensely dedicated staff which are very proud of the Toyota products we distribute to our dealers and end users. Should you have any questions, comments, criticisms of Toyota, TMHU, our staff, or any of the 3rd parties we work with, please feel free to contact me directly. I would much rathar see the mudslinging stop with a simple phone call, rather than continue reading unfounded comments that does no one in our great industry any good. Thank you for listening and please enjoy your holiday season.


Respectfully,

Martin Boyd
National Product Planning Manager
Toyota Material Handling, USA, Inc. (TMHU)
Irvine, CA - USA

Honestly folks, does anyone dispute that fuel is the number 2 cost in running a forklift? The operator, of course, is the number 1 cost. Should our customers care about fuel efficiency? Anyone believe that the major forklift manufacturers will come together, for the benefit of our customers, and provide objective fuel consumption data? Do any of the manufacturers even care whether their forklifts are fuel efficient? Our customers care and so should we. You may not like the Toyota methodology but let's give them the credit they deserve for bringing the subject up. Toyota is once again leading the way to improving the products we sell. Don't criticize Toyota, but rather demand that all manufacturers committ to lowering fuel usage by their forklifts. Remember this country has an energy shortage? And of course "Happy Holidays!!!"

The way this test was ordered, done and announced, make entire case so easy to solve in the court if legal actions were taken... there is nothing against Toyota or whoever else. This is just a precedent for future claims and statements. First of all for the sake of consumers, not companies.


Few aspects:


1. Fairness:
a. "...They included a Toyota 7FGCU25 and rented competitor forklifts: a Caterpillar C5000, a Komatsu FG25ST-14, a Nissan MCPL02A25LV and a Yale
GLC050VXNVSE083 Veracitor..."

i. Why Toyota was not rented...?

ii. Rented from who... other manufacturers, authorized dealer, third parties...?

iii. Any other details on engines, hours, rental sources...?

iv. Details on technical conditions...?

b. "...TMHU temporarily hired certified forklift operators with no other Toyota affiliation..."

i. Why did Toyota hire...? Why not other manufacturers...? Why not testing organization...?

2. Test and its claim:

a. "... A Toyota internal combustion forklift has been named the most fuel efficient and productive forklift by a United States Auto Club subsidiary..."

i. How many rental trucks were tested...? Only one...? Random?

ii. How one unit of each could represent entire 5000lbs range...? See statistics re: minimum sample size, sampling errors, bell curve, confidence interval and representativeness of sampling

iii. How one 5000 lbs truck be representative of entire forklifts possible range. Statement is directly from an article.

3. I am not even touching relationships between Toyota and united states auto club subsidiary.


Cheers everybody.

to ant_g

"...It looks like the tthing has a problem with Toyota lift trucks..."

Not, at all. Only with goofy tests. Toyota was one of them. Yale with its "ergonomic efficiency" is another one.



"...Can you tell me another lift truck manufacturer that spends the amount of money on research & development, customer satisfaction than Toyota? I didn't think..... so.."

Apparently, you have your sources in toyota's and other's finance, to be able to compare. Share it with everybody and prove it.



"...I have work with some of the so called competitors that Toyota has and they ONLY done their comparisons on the models they choose..."

Is it not the same what Toyota did...?


Have a nice day:-))

Yeah when you look in NAACO sales literature they say that they are #1 in fuel economy and maintenance repairs. Their test were performed by NMHG (Naaco Material Handling Group) Real unbiased I'm sure. At least Toyota does certify with a third party.

It looks like the tthing has a problem with Toyota lift trucks. They must be a HUGE thorn in his side. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see when someone deals with other brands of lifts.

Can you tell me another lift truck manufacturer that spends the amount of money on research & development, customer satisfaction than Toyota? I didn't think..... so

I have work with some of the so called competitors that Toyota has and they ONLY done their comparisons on the models they choose. I didn't see anyone spend this much time worrying about what they came up with. At least Toyota used an independent company to do their testing. So before you take jabs at someone make sure you have your information correct.

You must give Toyota credit for the marketing they have done in the past 5 years. The average buyer would not take this article with "a grain of salt" like most people in the industry would. I think Jungheinrich and Linde would have something to say about the results.

Toyota does not have a bad forklift but they definitely did not include their best competition for the test.

Suggestion to Mikey: Please conduct a little research before you express your unsubstantiated opinions. I just spent 2 hours on ForkliftAction.com, and there are no Toyota advertisements. In fact, I don't ever recall seeing a Toyota advertisement in ForkliftAction. Whatever the case, have a nice holiday.

Toyota has a great reputation, I don't believe that they would risk publishing false or misleading information to their dealers, customers and the public in general.

"...Not only does that mislead the end user it's flat out embarrassing..."

100% agree

"...forklift manufacturers FINALLY using "...unbiased..." 3rd parties..."

???

if you pay this "unbiased" party for test and you (only) chose the rules for test (drivers, equipment, conditions for equipment, sources for equipment, specs for equipment etc.), you will get whatever result you want.. this is the point... and it comes to the same validity of results as shown by " independent counterbalanced development centers". This is just a new "official" cover for the same old manufacturer's games, which is "...flat out embarrassing..." too.

I think it's a step forward to see you forklift manufacturers FINALLY using "...unbiased..." 3rd parties to prove out your systems. It's getting a little old seeing manufacturers' sales brochures citing their own "Counterbalanced Development Centers" for claiming industry leading productivity, ergonomics, fuel efficiency, etc. Not only does that mislead the end user it's flat out embarrassing.

Any manufacturer is at liberty to commission a test like this and can include or exclude any competitor. Once they get the results they want they issue a press release and tell the world about their how they "won" this unbiased comparison. My guess is that Toyota is a large advertiser with ForkliftAction.com.

"...And, is the methodology for this test questionable?..."

yes.

In politics there is a paradox, called "voting paradox". It means minority can win election providing they (minority) chose the voting rules.
By analogy, "testing paradox" - whoever pays for test will get favorable results.
My bet that, if Nacco/Nissan/ and Co repeat the same test, they will get absolutely different results.

About honesty...? Ask other manufacturers... they will tell you.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with Toyota sponsoring the test or choosing the participants. There is nothing wrong with a manufacturer commissioning and paying for tests to prove the efficiency of their product nor is it "dirty" to choose the participants it thinks are its closest rivals. My questions: Are the participants in the test not worthy rivals of Toyota's forklift? And, is the methodology for this test questionable? Only these two points beg discussion.

To: Forklift manufacturers

Any thoughts about doing REAL test..?

1. Every manufacturer will present one (two, three) forklifts (because there could be different engines within certain capacity range).
2. Operation cycle - agreed by everybody
3. Place - any trade show....
4. All trucks are new, prepared by manufacturers' teams

P.S. this test will not have much practical use, however it is very useful to shut up all these stupid ideas about incredible fuel efficiencies.

Anybody... from Mitsi, Nissan, Yale, Cat, Hyster, Toyota, Linde..?
Any comments on this?

"...that Toyota not only sponsered the test but chose the participants..."

no comments....
and of course, predicted results....
lousy and dirty work. I though better about toyota people and forklift action management:-((

After contacting the group that conducted the test we learned that Toyota not only sponsered the test but chose the participants. How can they claim to be the winner if many manufacturers were not included? It seems as though this test was of little or no significance and the results are bogus. The fact that Forklift Action chose to publish the article diminishes the fairness and professionalism of this site.