I wouldn't put much weight in an E bay rating. There is a guy that sell "reconditioned"trucks- call that used with a paint job, on E Bay that has a 100% rating and if you were to Google his or his company's name you would find 15 or more pages with not only negative opinions of him or his company, but instances where his company has been fined by the US government,
I don't have a problem with the word reconditioned in referring to a battery but I have a huge problem with the reference of rebuilt. The only way to rebuild a battery would be to cut into every cell. I usually use the analogy of a 12 cylinder engine with 500,000 miles on it- just because you re-ringed 2 pisons to stop it from smoking doesn't mean the same thing as rebuilding the entire engine..
As far as Midwest is concerned, if he sells his trucks on E bay and offers a 1 year warranty, exactly how does that work when the end user is located 1500 miles away and exactly what is warranteed. Sounds like the classic tell people what they want to hear story to me that proliferates in a down economy- just like the guy that sells "rebuilt" batteries.

Well "rebuilt" is one thing, reconditioned is what I referred to.
The batteries aren't simply "checked as good" and re-sold. Often times cells are replaced, acid levels are adjusted, the battery is cleaned and re-painted, new cables are installed. Granted that is not what most people would consider rebuilt but it is reconditioned. I trust that many of the same people who take issue with reconditioned batteries sell reconditioned forklifts all the time. What exactly makes a reconditioned forklift any better than a used forklift?
The answer is all the same things that make a reconditioned battery better than a simply used battery. They are checked for problems, repaired as needed and repainted and they cost half as much. I would go so far as to say that the quality of recon batteries I've seen over the years far exceeds the quality of recon forklifts I've come across.
I know Gib in Indiana sells an excellent product and I've seen a few other dealers that do a great job but most dealers selling a reconditioned lift are simply selling a cheap paint job and a tune up. And maybe battery dealers are the same, I don't know. I just know that the batteries we sell are obtained from excellent, reputable vendors and our customers are happy with their purchase.
As to the original post on this thread, I contacted Midwest Lift through their website and they claim the negative comment on their google page stems from a guy in OH who dropped his forklift 4 feet from the loading dock and tried to turn it back in on their 30-day money back promise. The very dangerous condition was that it caught fire. They point to their 100% positive feedback rating on ebay.
But as far as batteries are concerned, our typical customer calls up and says they need to get their truck up and running again without spending $4500. Most if not all of them use their lift less than 2 hours a day. In these cases, a new battery is a waste of money. The 80% recon battery will last a long long time at only 2 hours a day use, a few times a week. And for that, $2200 is a much better deal.

I would also wonder if there is such a thing as any information showing a "rebuilt" battery's energy consumption to recharge to level where it will be of 80% charge after 4 hours operation to be any different than a "checked as good but used" battery's energy consumption to acquire the same level of charge/useful operational hours. I think if I saw such figures and knew them to be testable and accurate, I might conclude there was some value in what Mike1234 had to offer.

Mike1234; Any of us can sell a used battery that tests out at 80%. The difference is that we call it "used" and I suspect that they are way less expensive than a "rebuilt" battery. Just curious, besides cosmetics and cables what is "rebuilt" on a "rebuilt" battery. I've heard some people say thay they actually cut open the cells and rebuild each cell. I've been asking people for decades if there is such thing as a "rebuilt" battery and have yet to find anyone other than the people that sell them believe that there is.
You know, most of us also sell used forklift trucks, but I don't think that people that buy them consider that those of us that sell them are "providing a valuable service".

I guess I don't understand all the animosity toward reconditioned battery dealers.
It's really very simple:
A local customer should not spend $4000+ on a new battery that they only use an hour or two a day.
Why not spend $2,200 on a 5 year old battery that tests out at 4 hours 80%+ with a warranty?
We have sold hundreds of recon batteries since 2004, and we have warranty work on about 5% of them.
If a customer calls and needs 3 recon batteries because they run 3 shifts and need to swap them out twice a day, we tell them they are wasting their money, they need to buy new.

Recon battery suppliers/dealers are everywhere. They provide a valuable service to their customers. Plain and simple.

Brass Tacks,

Totally agree with what you stated, our company aligned ourselves with one battery/charger supplier. There was a mutual trust between us and honesty. When they reconed a battery/charger they did all the things you listed and back up their products with a 1 year warranty adn never hesitated to absorb the expense if & when a warranty issue arised.

As you stated an electric truck should never be recommended for an application that is utilized less than 1.2 to 2 hours per day in my humble opinion due to the sulfation issue you mention or with those 110 or 22v 16 hour chargers.

Regards,
"Cheeky" John R

It looks like neither side on this issue is making any progress convincing the other very well.
The thing that leave me unconvinced are:
1. I have seen extremely few new batteries of any manufacturer fail during the warranty period.
2. I have NEVER seen a battery fail to the point where it had to be replaced during the warranty period.
3. I haven't heard of anyone who I would consider legitimate players in the industry sell either the renewed or rebuilt or desulphation battery service.
4. I haven't seen one reply to the original post that says that they've tried these services and they ahd great luck.
I feel the same way about these services as I do about Chinese no name pallet trucks. If an end user can't justify spendind $400 investment for a decent pallet truck that lasts a ridiculously long then I don't probably don't want them as a customer.
When I sell a truck to a light duty user and need to keep the price low then we sell them a known good used battery from a trusted supplier. Most of the time the customer will ask "how do you know if it is any good" and my reply is always the same. Use it if it lasts 1 hour then you will know it's junk. But it will last you 4 to 5 hours and you know it''s good.

We recondition industrial batteries in-house. We sell to dealers and end users.

Many dealers purchase from various battery companies (dealers/resellers/repair shops), so one cannot put a GOOD/BAD label on a forklift dealer. If you know specifically where the battery was reconditioned then one can be a better judge of actual expected quality.

My Advice:
Ask for references and read the warranty fine print.
Age the battery and secure an load test on the actual battery being sold. If a battery has not been load tested, it is NOT reconditioned. Voltage readings when the battery is installed and when the truck is in use, can show if some batteries are in extremely poor condition, but it is no where near sufficient for determining capacity/longevity.
When reviewing the cell voltages look for relative consistency in numbers and more importantly a 4th hour voltage reading of 1.70 or greater.
There are obviously many other factors that weigh in, but adhere to the above and you will limit your risk.

On the battery renew: The above comment on "Snake Oil" made me chuckle, but I thought it was... fitting. Though I cannot say exactly what is in this magic potion, I can say after a rigorous Q&A session, with the local guy, we were left less than convinced.

As for the use of reconditioned batteries?
80% capacity guarantees a solid 4 hour run time. Yes a reconditioned battery has a shorter life span than new and the engine analogy is... cheeky, but not entirely incorrect. The lower acquisition cost of a recon battery makes it attractive to the extremely light duty users; users who cannot justify purchasing a new battery just so it can sit and sulfate. As long as the supplying dealer is representing the batteries correctly, they are a good niche.

As for the phrase "the root of the end users lack of understanding of proper battery care and very few assign a single person the responsibility for this" BINGO

Steve- Don't really disagree with what you said and agree the root of the end users lack of understanding of proper battery care and very few assign a single person the responsibility for this. And when there are more than one person assigned the responsibility - finger pointing becomes popular. It is true many customers abuse the battery or bought a 110 v charger to charge a 1020 amp battery from a "fly by night" of "lean too" type dealer.

But it is also true that very few customers & sales personnel are trained on proper maintenance and charging techniques. I as a lift truck sales person made it my responsibility to 1 train the end users on proper battery charging and maintenance techniques and worked with our battery supplier to set- up a battery/charger PM program. Customers appreciate this rather than remain loyal rather than feel like someone keeps picking their pockets for their "ignorance"

It is also true that sulfation is removed from the plates in the initial phase of the charging cycle through the initial high amp delivery. And battery service companies at a comparatively attractive price can often remove heavy sulfation via process involving "deep" discharging cycling, acid balancing and stuff like that.

Hope you sell a million - but I'm not sold - sorry.

Hi John,
You seem very well knowledged in the battery business and I assume you do well at it. Unfortunately it is the client who causes the problems with their batteries. By assuming that they take proper care of their batteries by charging them the right amount of time, letting them cool down before use, checking the water and equalizing them (both electrically and pertaining to the acid content) is giving them more credit than they actually deserve. These vehicles are the heart of any distribution center but for the most part are abused just like most humans abuse their own hearts. By not charging them properly and not adding water when necessary they accelerate the sulfating process of the battery. I was at a client yesterday who has 40 forkliftrs, 20 go carts and 20 order pickers. Out of those 80 units 28 had batteries that were dry. Obviously his poor maintenance job has caused those batteries to lose some life. Our job is to come in and rectify the situation they have caused by improper maintenance and charging. Additionally, for those people who do maintain their batteries close to standards, just by actually using the equipment they are causing sulfation. It's just a by product of a battery's use and 80% of battery problems are caused by sulfation.
As for the warranties, statistics show that only 30% of batteries actually reach 48 months. Most warranties at that point are completely useless because of the pro-rated formula used. Not to mention how most battery companies will look for reasons to prove that the battery was not maintained properly so as not to have to replace it. I'm also aware of how some clients will not submit a claim for a battery that didn't last the 5 years because of one reason or another. I know, sounds crazy, but it does happen.
In respect to the lead shedding, it is true that there is very little anyone can do to stop it. However, by allowing the sufate to build up on the cell you're just adding another problem that can reduce the battery life. If you keep the sulfates off and allow the cell to remain softer so it can accept more electricity you'll get more out of it (obviously) as time ticks against it.
I can understand your skepticism because there is definitely a history of "snake oil salesmen" in the battery reconditioning field. Because our process is so innovative and new we accept the challenges ahead of us because we believe in the science behind our process, the necessity of our product and the results of our efforts.

GreenPulse & Duodeluxe

GreenPulse
Not to get into a discussion of sales "pitches" but:
1. I believe it is very common to get 5 years+ out of a battery (assuming a single shift operation) with proper maintenance and charging methods. As an example, I had a customer in a relatively high volume (4.5 - 5 hours average operating hours per unit) single shift operation that averaged 8.5 years out of a new battery (some 11 years) with a fleets of 26 units and lifts to 20 feet many units fitted with carpet poles. Most units were stand up, counterbalance and reach units with a few 3 wheels. They gave the batteries TLC when it came to maintenance & charging - the even use the "EQUALIZE" button on the chargers which 90% of electric truck users knows where it is or what it does and there was no signs of overfilling on the cells (i.e. sulfate). Just like changing oils in an ICE unit - just remember that oil is always cheaper than metal and those cure all additives cannot repair abuse.
2. With respect to warranty there are battery companies, that are price competitive, that offer a full 5 year warranty I have sold them and they live up to full expectation. I believe I made mention of the fact that some battery brands or sales reps claim a 5 year battery warranty in a quote but in actuality it is a 3 year full warranty & 2 years of prorated e.g. GNB, General and other brands.
3. How do you address the issue of " lead shedding" which will short out a battery cell and/or AHC of the battery cell? Sulfate removal from the plates has little to do with that.

If you consider these factors (5-year life) & full five-year warranty in to your analysis then it appears the net benefit becomes less attractive.

Duodeluxe,

I work with a local battery supplier and service dealer here in Atlanta. When they rebuilt a battery they
1.) Advise that you will get a minimum of 80% of the original AHC (actually kWh) of the battery
2.) The battery is targeted for use by single shift operations and up to 3-4 hours per shift & units equipped with simple attachments (side shift, fork positioners types).
3.) They provided test results of the before and after of the battery that was "rebuilt" or "reconditioned", they never implied the battery was "renewed" as this implies that battery is back to original capability.
4.) They backed the battery with a full 1-year warranty.

We sold these batteries in used electrics where operations were slow, e.g. retail carpets stores or small warehouses that wanted to convert to electric. Kinda' like selling a used ICE truck (reconditioned type). They ain't for every body because used means it is partially or almost all they way wore out.
I trust you have a good battery supplier that can provide recon'd batteries and are knowledgeable. I might suggest you take them in to see a prospect the next time you run into "the renew battery guy" or "snake oil peddler"

The reason that I started this discussion was that I lost an order to a customer who bought a "Renewed" battery and I couldn't find anyone in the battery business who could figure out what "magical" thing that could be done to significantly increase the life of a know bad (spell that SPENT) battery. I'm sure those that are in the renewal business feel that the manufacturers feel they are a threat and therefore won't acknowlege that a battery can be "renewed". I choose not to believe that.

It is ironic that these battery re-lifers have proliferated since the economy started its downward spiral. Unfortunatley, one of the victims of a bad economy is customers who buy from companies that tell them what they want to hear. It's too bad for them and it's too bad for us.

I know that the anti sulfation process is different than "rebuilding" a battery. The battery "rebuilders" have been around for a while longer. But to me rebuilding a 48 volt battery by putiing 3 used cells in it is the equivalent of re-ringing 3 cylinders in a 24 cylinder engine that has a half a million miles on it. Who would ever consider that the engine is rebuilt?

My other problem with the battery "Re-Lifers" is that the only forklift people that I know of that sell their batteries have less than stellar reputations.

John,
If you spend $3,000 on a forklift battery with the life expectancy of let's say 3 years, and my system can get you an additional 1 to 3 years out of that battery for say 40% of the cost of a new battery, why not save the 60% and put those savings into purchasing something else. The 30% to 40% cost is for the initial desulphation process. The preventive maintenance done yearly is considerably less expensive. As for battery warranties, they are figured in the favor of battery manufacturers. Let's say you buy a 60 month battery and it lives up to 41 months. The warranty is so pro-rated that when taking the months used against the full retail price of a battery you end up paying about the same money as if you purchased the batter at the sale price. This makes the manufacturer happy. What makes us happy is to help the client exceed the warranty. Let me assure you it can be done with our service and the right maintenance plan for batteries. Also, as the battery gets weaker, the amp hours are reduced and that affects the productivity of the user which is an additional loss of revenue for the client. By our desulphating the battery we help reduce loss of amp hours and keep the clients productivity up. I hope this helps.

GreenPlus,
Why not spend 100% for a new battery and get 100% life of a new battery backed by a 5 year warranty? (yep some of the less expensive batteries have a 3+2 warranty). Your alternative seems to say spend 30% to 40% and get 40 to 90% of the original life with a depending on the condition. Waht type of warranty backs up your service?

Does your cost ball park include replacement of dead cells that have shorted out due to lead shedding off the plates? or Is that extra?

I am a partner in a battery desulphation company located on the east coast. Our service extends the life of the battery from 40% to 90% depending on the condition of the battery. Our service is done at the client's location and we provide a before and after report comparing the voltage, specific gravity and impedence readings as well as any recommendations on the individual cells of the battery. This service saves money by extending the life of the battery and is much less expensive than the cost of a new battery (averages between 30 and 40 percent of the cost of a new battery). The battery reconditioning companies out there make some acid adjustments and make the battery look good, but they really do not do anything to restore the functionability of the battery. Our system removes the harmful sulphur from the lead cells and allows the electricity to be absorbed into them.

I know of a few companies that sell "Renewed" or "Rebuilt batteries" and I would classify them as companies that I would notfeel comfortable dealing with. The ad on E Bay says that their batteries are "rebuilt by the manufacturer". I'd like to know what battery manufacturer is so desperate that they have devolved into doing that. I don't think so.

I googled the address of the company selling "rebuilt" batteries and found the following review:


"I purchased a used lift from Midwest Lift Trucks as listed on e-bay. The lift delivered was certainly not worth the money I paid. It was not even useable as delivered. It had to be sent immediately (due to a very dangerous condition) to a licensed dealer to have major repair work done on it. Hundreds of dollars out of pocket for unit described on e-bay as a "good all around truck." Certainly wasn't. Buyer beware of purchases from this company".

Have no experience with this company regarding reconditioned or "rebuilt" batteries. But I have experience with another company that I considered very reputable that sells reconditioned batteries. Basically what they did to recondition batteries was:

1. Take a used battery - generally 5 to 7 years old and performed a load test on the battery, after replacing any marginal inter cell connectors and acid balance each cell. Any cell that could not deliver at least 80% of the original amp/hour capacity capability was replaced. This process took 2 days.

2. This company would provide a test report that reflected the battery cell ratings before and after "reconditioning".

3. This battery company would warrant the battery for 1 years - parts & labor - provided a compatible charger in could working order was used to charger the battery. Undersized chargers will do a lot to shorten the life of any battery - new or used. This company also sold reconditioned chargers.

4. This company also advised that "reconditioned" batteries be recommended for applications where the forklift is used (actually operating time) a maximum of 2-3 hours per day.

We had very satisfied customers but he was local and could perform service & warranty issues easily - very important consideration.

If the company you are looking at is not in your country - you may find it difficult to import them into your country unless they are installed in a lift truck first or the battery is a "dry cell" type - which a used battery would not be. Check into this closely. This caused me some issues when I sold new equipment into Mexico for about 10 years.