Forkingabout

Thanks for your comment
I believe that the load chain is set so when parked the heels of the forks are just off the floor. The speed limiter that slows the truck with the reach extended I have seen before, we have a speed limiter in-case the operator drives with his forks raised. But this dosnt happen at the depot I work because the consequences of doing this is not worth it.

forgive my ignorance of certain foreign phrases and words but...
whats a straw man?

All the customers reach truck's I look after, the operator's are trained to fully tilt back on the forks loaded or unloaded when travelling, this also helps stop wear on the fork's when unloaded ( none of mine drag along the floor, chains always adjusted correctly )

All the newer reach truck's I look after also go a lot slower forks first OR with reach extended to encourage the driver to operate the truck correctly - these features can be turned off but the management & trainers wanted it left switched on.

Swoop, please lets do away with the straw man and hyperbole. This is a discussion, a debate about training standards. I am fully aware that we do things differently and therefore have a difference in opinion. I accept that. I don't need reminding of it. No agenda, other than to determine what your training standards is for fork position. Nothing hidden in that. I've been quite clear. If you don't know then say so. No big deal. If you do know, all you need to do is state it. simple really. Just cut the defensive straw man stuff. It indicates that yours is an opinion only.

You are man enough to swing by and write a 728 word post demanding statistics for 'ankle/leg', and pose questions, give your opinions and clearly state "lets see how this discussion turns now ;o".

You got your discussion. This is how its turned. Surely you can stick around and answer? It is a legitimate question and your response is noted. My stance is clear. Given the requests for verifiable evidence and statistics (your rules) etc I am trying to establish why yours and others opinions differ even in a matter of a few weeks.

I read your post of 25 June 2014 perfectly the first time and second time. I screenshot it for posterity. It says the same. It was this comment I was referring too:-

Quote - "Is it that difficult to drive with forks tilted back?
it only requires a predetermined decision by the operator to decide when he is going to have to level the forks when approaching a pallet or load. That is not that difficult. And it makes him tilt back after grabbing the load to insure safe load carrying. Hope this explains it - Unquote.

Reads clearly to me that you are questioning what is wrong with us using back tilt as it " is not that difficult"! That was most definitely you stating a personal opinion! Please clarify why that has changed?

Perhaps if your opinions weren't so inconsistent and you could clarify to what training standard you are trained to then I wouldn't need to ask. You seemed very opinionated earlier on in the discussion and I thought you would have the answers.

Can you clarify or are your opinions just that, opinions?

Cheers

Jonah

well Johah
if you had read my post more carefully instead of looking for supporting bits inside the comments to support your ajenda here
you would see i was not personally or professionally saying "I" thought that was the best way to operate the lift. "I said" and i quote
"alot of accidents on lift trucks are due to operators not carrying the load correctly. I can only assume the mfg is just trying to idiot proof the situation forcing the operator to tilt back to insure load stability."

note i said "i assume"
that is not me stating fact, it is an assumption from information i could not verify or disclaim at the time i posted it.

Now instead of throwing out knee jerk reactions and picking apart what we say here to support your stance on this, might i suggest being less argumentative and more assertive with helpful comments? I mean seriously now.. you are now attacking anyone that has an opposing opinion whether its warranted or not and manipulating their comments from this discussion to suit whatever it is YOU are trying to achieve here.

I've said enough and will not be responding to these type comments any longer.

Have a nice day :o)

Hi Joe - thank you for your input.

In relation to the tilt positioning of the forks unladen and laden.
UK training standards, instructional techniques and the safe practices we employ are quite clear with this. I have already referenced the standards we follow and who sets them. No made up S*** required and certainly no re-inventing of any wheel.

There are no deviations from the basic and fundamental methods we use and practice. The positioning of the forks is a fundamental method and safe practice we teach and is standard throughout the FLT training industry here. It may not be liked by some but that is the way it is.

Un-laden = Forks raised clear of the ground sufficient for the working environment with forks tilted backwards. The reasoning for this has been explained.

Laden = Forks and load raised clear of the ground sufficient for the working environment with sufficient stabilising back tilt to support and stabilise the load and the truck.

These techniques are very clear during training and testing and are subsequently re-enforced during refresher training every 3 to 5 years. Refresher training is specifically designed to bring all operators back to the safe practices taught and iron out any unsafe practices and bad habits gained, such as positioning of forks. We test both practically and theoretically on this specific issue and faults/points are awarded on a test for incorrect safe practice and incorrect answers. No ambiguity whatsoever.

This method cannot be altered by the wishes or insistence of a customer, business or individual, regardless of who they are, how big they are or how good/bad there safety record is.

That is the position here in the UK and it is quite clear.

Given that there appears to be so much said here about the need for statistics and independently verifiable statistics, and wanting to hold you to your own standard of evidence, what is the current recognised safe practice in the USA (OSHA) for positioning of the forks, if any, and what independently verifiable statistics have been used to determine that positioning?

Seems to be an inconsistency in opinion amongst instructor and tech guys on this and in this thread.
Cheers
Jonah

Swoop - You highlight some very important issues in the opinions you have and based on the experiences that you have had.

Have you changed your opinion since your post of 25 June 2014 as you appear to champion the forks tilted backwards in that post yet you now champion the forks tilted forward.

Cheers

Jonah

No argument here Jason. I'm right for what we do. You know it too. Certainly no points scoring from my perspective. I have absolutely no need to score points here or anywhere else.

I answered your question correctly and professionally. You decided to take it as an insult and deem most of it as irrelevant and your fellow straw man here took it upon himself to continue with it. I suggest you re-read the question you asked and re-read the response you actually got in that post. You where both wrong to react they way you did. I don't much care for Edwards opinion. It is irrelevant to the discussion in hand but you asked a question that we wouldn't expect from an ITSSAR instructor. My response was to suit.

Cheers

Jonah

Ok Jonah I guess I got this forum wrong. Not going to rise to your last comment, This is my last comment on this thread. I'm here to talk about training issues not to score points on **** for tat arguing, you lot carry on.

Regards Jason.

All good here Jason. Just telling it as it is here in the UK. Pity you didn't acknowledge it.

You are getting quite a few raised eyebrows from fellow instructors here who are wondering why you asked such a question and why you chose to do it here rather than over at the ITSSAR website.

Cheers

Jonah

Ok chaps take a deep breath, put your hand bags down, shake hands, agree to disagree. Just shows how passionate we are about training I couldn't think of another job I would rather do, very rewarding.

Thanks again for all your comments.

Jason...

No no......leave all as is. Your responses are as expected and I have nothing to hide here. I stand by everything I have said and will be adding more. Been a while since I was faced with straw man and hyperbole, Keep at it. The noise is growing but im sure I can handle it.

So you perceive yourself as an internet warrior trying to stamp out the bullying of a grade school yard tough guy. Cool stuff and i'm sure that the cape fits but do you have anything else to say that is relevant to the discussion in hand or can I go about my business and offer some advise to a fellow UK instructor asking questions that require UK based answers?

Cheers

Jonah

I don't really consider it argumentative, I consider it more like; I don't like to allow myself or others to be bullied by someone claiming to not be a bully.
You may have heard the quote of Edmund Burke; "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing".

By the way Jonah, I would be pleased to go back and edit my responses to your posts, should you decide you would rather not have the world and their dogs see your statements about and around the "mother's meeting", existing forever on the internet, and decide on your own to edit your posts so they sound more professional and less like a grade school yard tough guy.

Thanks.

Oh my Edward- we are the argumentative type. Chill out man before you give yourself an ulcer.

Cheers

Jonah

I don't always speak/read "normal" English (I am from Miami, Spanglish was the spoken tongue in my grade school) so when I see the word "sorry" I often think it is an apology, and don't catch onto the context right away.
my bad.

Hi Edward

I didn't think I had apologized and lets face it there's only so much you can talk about travel tilt.

Thanks for your comments.

ZZJASEZZ, I don't think there is any reason for YOU to apologize, and you are correct, it did get off track from the original inquiry.

Re :

ok this kind of got off the subject at hand, sorry for that ZZJASE :o)

Feel free to carry on swoop interesting reading :)

Jonah, you ask "Are you permitted to swap and change you training standards as and when it suits in the US?"
I think JoeM answered that when he said "In the USA, OSHA demands compliance with all training topics listed, but allows you to disregard those an employer can demonstrate are not applicable", I think most reasonable folks would consider a 16 year record as "can demonstrate are not applicable".
And no, I can not share the name of the company, as I do not have their permissions to advertise their business. Can you divulge the names of any of your customer's in a public forum? I know we do not ever, without specific written permissions.
?Perhaps that too is different between the US and the other side of the pond? If it ever becomes public domain information, I will be sure to return and inform you, the world and their dogs of whom they are. On this side of the pond, such a disclosure would be considered {at best unprofessional, and more likely} actionable in a court of law.
Jonah, you say "Nothing personal intended", yet you had previously said; "they shouldn't be operating a truck and should be attending the latest mothers meeting instead. =paragraph= What surprises me even more is that the OP says in his sig that he is an ITSSAR FLT Instructor? This is basic stuff. Should know better". I know I can see how that may appear 'personal', even if you do not.

I know I appreciate the input and discussion, Jonah, and while I won't bother making a false disclaimer that I am saying 'nothing personal', I would also note that your assumption is not universally agreed with as to the importance of; "selecting neutral and applying the handbrake before using the hydraulics", even though that is the standard where you provide your services. On my side of the pond, that regulation is viewed with incredulity by most forklift operators, and is often pointed to as 'government over reach'.

If you read my post you may have recognized that I _had_ "simply accept that tilting the forks back" is generally 'best practice', and had been _corrected_ by the corporate safety officer of a customer, for their operation ONLY.

Jonah, you also make a very contradictory statement in; "I have no reason to doubt that the business you refer to is so insistent on travelling with their forks tilted forward"... "Could you possibly divulge that business name so that I could check your 16 year safety record and verify that they do indeed insist on travelling with forks tilted forward"..."I think it needs verifying".
Your statement basically calls me a liar, in an open forum,,, you go even further with your "not personal" attack in stating; "I very much doubt that you would be convinced in whatever was shown to you". I think that calls your basic understanding of 'professionalism' _and_ your use of 'The Queen's English' into question. It is -not- _MY_ 16 year safety record, it is the record of a particular facility in a huge company, and it -is- a personal attack on my credibility, about something I have no reason to be less than absolutely honest about.


Jonah, do you know this forum allows us to edit our comments after we post?

heh, well mrfixit
if a company has a 'hotdog' operator then maybe they should re-evaluate and be paying more attention if they allow him to operate the lift in such a manner.
Now a days most companies i go to do not tolerate that type of lift driving period... they maintain a 0 tolerance rule.
Might see it in the smaller mom and pop businesses because they don't seem to be 'watched' as closely as big businesses. Not saying they aren't monitored at all but it does seem less so than big corporations are. But even that is changing.
When any business operator or owner starts seeing what insurance costs are from injuries no matter where they originate from, they do start paying more attention to the things that cause them. For the cost effect it creates and mostly for the safety of their workers.

ok this kind of got off the subject at hand, sorry for that ZZJASE :o)