Thanks for helping to make my point about not relying on "the government" to do much more than they have historically done...especially with the many client/managers who's mission is limited to the "appearance" of compliance with the minimal regulatory requirements.

I believe the frustrations I'm seeing on this site are shared, more or less, by most trainers in our industry. My hope was to stimulate some discussion that might eventually lead to some relief for those who need it. Obviously, there are a lot of clients who have every intention of "complying" with the training regulations, regardless of whether the training actually delivers any useful and durable operator skills that can be verified.

So, my conclusion is that we trainers can be our own worst enemy! If we claim to be effective; if we claim that our efforts achieve "training transfer"; if we claim that we ensure a valuable behavior repertory in the operators we train...and can NOT do so, for ANY reason, then we need to get out of the operator training business and find a vocation where our personal skills will be welcomed and compensated to our satisfaction.

I personally have little-to-no patience for client managers who do not agree that forklift operator training and management is important enough to pay for the high quality that they can NOT get with "compliance-based" training. I don't want them as clients! THEY don't want the expense of doing it right. So, we have a deal...and I will either get out of the business or find other clients who agree with me. Luckily, there are clients out there, mostly responsible senior managers who do agree with the quality/value proposition! They are difficult to find, but when you do find them, the ensuing partnership can be many years long and productive for everyone involved! I hope as much for all the trainers in our industry.

Best wishes

www dot LIFTOR dot com

Just to give you guys an idea of what trainers do in my region, read the following:

A man calls me up and wants the details on forklift training...cost, time, where, etc., He may have an opportunity to gain employment but requires, as he says, to be certified.

Since he is a novice operator, he will require my 2 day course, and the only truck is the sit-down, and that covers off propane and battery. I explained that the first day, from 8-5PM will include all the theory and written testing. The second day, also starting at 8AM, will concentrate on learning how to operate the forklift in congested areas, and learn how to acquire and deposit highly placed and lowly placed pallets. The second day should finish at 530, but finishing at 7PM is not out of the question.

That is the time allotted to me.

I am up against another company that will train him in one day, supposedly 8 hours, on 5 different classes of lift trucks, count em, 5, theory and practical, and the trainer requires his info so the certificate and permit can be ready shortly thereafter.

Helllooooo! Whats the problem here? Am I the only blind person in this room? 5 machines, theory and practical in one day? And you know what? This person will probably end up going to that trainer because he is cheaper, will do 5 classes of lift trucks, and get it done in one day! AND, get CERTIFIED!

His prospective employer is not a client of mine, and my class for the college is filling up nicely in March, so whether he attends or not, is not a problem for me. But 5 classes of lift trucks, and you are certified in one 8 hour day? Come on! Everyone here knows that it is impossible to effectively 'certify' a novice individual on 5 classes of lift trucks in one day, let alone one class of truck.

Is someone out there yelling 'Quality of training is not an issue?'

As long as someone has the knowledge, training and experience, that person can be a trainer. And how about adding 'not an idiot' into the requirements, to become a professional trainer!

joe m:

Government leadership? Now that 's an oxymoron. We don't need a governmental agency to lead (if they ever could). We merely need the OSHA administrations to do what they are paid, and supposedly trained, to do. They need to put some teeth in their enforcement policy and enforce their regulations - especially forklift training.

The U.S. does not need to reinvent the wheel. It already has the most stringent forklift regulations of any country and these regulations extend to other types of powered industrial trucks as well.

Those that are not familiar with U.S. OSHA 1910.178, Powered Industrial Trucks, can download a copy from osha.gov.

The specific U.S. employer training requirements can be found in OSHA 1910.178(l) Training.

In addition to many specific training requirements, lacking in most other countries, there is a specific requirement to train employees in any element of section (OSHA 1910.178, Powered Industrial Trucks) that is applicable. (See OSHA 1910.178(l)(3)(iii).

An employer can add any additional training so desired. AS A MINIMUM, however, the OSHA training elements listed must be addressed. OSHA inspectors should audit these specific items for compliance. This simple task would make a big difference in the quality of forklift training in the U.S. in the shortest interval possible.

There are consensus standards throughout the world. Engineers voluntarily adopt such standards. Governments do not. Governments may adopt bits and pieces as written, but normally they edit the standards to suit their desires after years of delay. Government works on the NIH syndrome - if it's not invented here we don't need it.

One of the best forklift consensus standards, in my opinion, is the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) B335-04, Safety standard for forklift trucks. It can be reviewed online.

Google: Ontario Ministry of Labour, Health and Safety and click on "View Canadian Standards Association (CSA) Standards" at the bottom of the page.

If Canada would adopt this consensus standard as written and enforce it, you would shortly see dramatic changes with Canada's forklift training as well.

Joseph you get another AMEN!!!!!

Yes it would be great to have a Global professional Guild with a common purpose and High standards.

A dream !!!! yes probably

But a survey would be a start and then work from there

The need is there it is up to all of us to provide the answers.

Is it time that serious trainers in our industry take the lead in developing a common "training process" standard for Powered Industrial Trucks (Forklifts)?

It seems clear that if we do not take the lead in establishing something more effective than what we have now, no government is about to do more than they have been doing to affect the improvements we say we want in our industry.

Can you imagine what our group of (obviously) impassioned people can accomplish if they can find the common purpose to focus our individual resources? I say we stop looking to the government's leadership to drive what we really want and start looking for leadership in the mirror.

That survey might help get things started.

What say ye?

Amen!

Normandy -

You can find hundreds of similar U.S. advertisements for kits, videos, training programs, trainers, etc. promising a quick fix. Every one is trying to make a fast buck. Most U.S. employers do not know what the OSHA regulations require and they are too lazy to find out. Many are lured into buying these supposed quick fixes. (Buyer Beware!)

Yes, forklift training for the majority of U.S. employers is a joke! It is a joke because the regulatory agencies (federal and state plan Occupational Safety and Health Administrations) do not enforce the regulations that currently exist. If OSHA inspectors audited each specific item outlined in the powered industrial truck training regulation, the majority of the U. S. employers (if not all) could be cited for training non-compliance. If realistic fines were rendered for these violations, we could probably get rid of our U.S. deficit.

The U.S. OSHA administrations must train the OSHA inspectors in the hazards of forklifts and how to audit the training records for detailed compliance with the regulations. They must quit merely accepting a piece of paper indicating that the forklift operators were trained.

I have just had an Email for an operation in Boulder that implies that in the states you can become OSHA compliant for Novice operators in 2 hours and anyone can do the training with their Kit

If this is so Forklift Operator Training in the states is a Joke !!

We really do need a survey to see what the situation is Globally and try to stamp out this nonsense.

Well Paddy-B

Forklift action have indicated that they would like to help so all you need to do is think of the questions that you would like to include and then maybe if we can get some consensus we all can give it a go.

I think that in general there are a lot of people with genuine concerns about Quality Operator Training.

a international survey! Great idea,
trust an irishman to think of an idea like that

We might be able to do something like that. Please add to the questions and word each question so that they are exactly what you want to know.

On This whole issue of effectiveness, Quality, Employer and state compliance would it not be nice if Forklift Action did a world wide survey. dividing into areas such as.
Australia and New Zealand
Asia
Middle East
Europe
Africa
North America
South America

And ask all Trainers to give their opinion on
Training Time
Quality
Employer compliance
Operator compliance
State compliance
etc.

We could all have an input into the questions to be asked and then people would be happier to answer them honestly.

Then we all would have a good idea of how training problems are worldwide and maybe how other people solve them

Surely that would not be to difficult for Forklift Action to administer ?

Outside of covering all the contents of a training schedule and ACOP'S to the best of our ability we surely have to ask ourselves a couple of questions.
1 - Would I be happy working with this person myself ?
2- Can I be reasonably sure that this person and all the people working with him/her will be going home at night ?

If the answer to either question is NO then the question of the effectiveness of the training has been answered (imho) ;-)

joe

A business hires a person as a warehouse forklift operator. This person is earning $12.00/hr. Businesses are not interested in paying alot of money to have that person trained, especially if the person quits a short time after to a job that pays.25cents an hour more. And if they had it their way, the training would be completed in 1/2 day. This is fact! I experience it everyday.

First question is 'how much?' Second question 'how long will it take?' That's it! That's all!

80 hours of practical training? You're dreaming in technicolor. No one here, at least, is willing to afford their staff for 80 hours of training, financially, time off the floor, or otherwise No one.

I take the most amount of time to do forklift training in the region I work and live. Typically, a full day for 7-8 staff on a sit-down propane truck. Whether they are novice or experienced, that is all afforded to me. If I took 2 days, I would be working as a forklift operator at Home Depot myself.

We can all wish and hope that industry sees things our way, but they won't, especially when production comes first, and safety, last.

All I can do is go in and do the best training available in the time allotted to me. That's it! If I don't, someone is on my heels ready to appease the client. That is reality. That is the way it is!

I agree with what all you are saying. On the other hand, I have to deal with the phone calls I get each and every day. How much and how long?

And as long as every business commands the same, and many of my competition adheres to their subpar practices, we can talk until we are blue in the face, one day is all we've got, and those are the terms we must live by. If anything else is written in the laws, and the laws are not enforced, then its industry who is commanding the workload, and not vice versa.

Whether you agree with me or not, that is your choice. I deal with this everyday. I take the longest amount of time of all my competition to educate and ****, and I am certainly far from the most expensive.

1. "By what objective measure do we decide that our training efforts are effective?"

Trainers often use visual evaluation (assessment) of desired operator outputs. Trainers also often use written or oral exam of the operator's knowledge of basic theory, operating requirements, regulations, etc.

Unfortunately these measures are too often used once immediately after training. They should also be used at regular intervals over time. Intermittent evaluation over time gives a better indication of the effectiveness of the training.

2. "What is the purpose of training operators?"

The primary purpose of training forklift operators is to teach them of the hazards and safeguards of the equipment and the job and how to operate the forklift in a safe manner.

The second purpose of forklift training is to have the employer comply with the OSH/OHS/OSHA training regulations.

The training provided is too often either one or the other and not the required or desired combination.

The major problem with most trainers is their inability to recognize, or admit to the employer, that they are not capable of covering all of the training that is required or desired especially within the time constraints agreed to by most employers.