I was just at a conference on lp power. An exec from a major automaker (One of the US big 3) stated that operating vehicles on lp gas may be cheaper fuel and the US may have a large natural gas supply but the process of making the engines run on lp was not economical? Seems to be pretty easy to run a 4 cylinder gm engine in a forklift of lp gas...maybe the automakers should call impco for help. I'd like some of the guys from the lift truck industy to voice their opinions in this area. I guarantee for 500 bucks I can make my 4 cylinder honda accord run perfectly on lp gas...which here is 2.23 per gallon!
Showing items 1 - 20 of 20 results.
i remember my father had a mark 3 ford escort estate car with a lpg tank in the spare wheel well in the back. i,m going back 20 years ,he would flick a switch on the dash when the car was up to speed and temp and off it would run on lpg. i can always remember he would flick the switch back to petrol for the hills.
Snowman,
The doggieness comes from the fact that LPG has less BTU (or Power) than does gasoline and that hasn't changed since both fuels were discovered. Most people would not notice much difference unless they are carrying or pulling a load, going up hill, like to accelaerate quickly, etc.
Also, due to the OCTANE rating differences in the fuels there is also a difference in the engine timing setting to optimize fuel combustion and prevent pre ignition (spark knock) when operating on one fuel or the other. With the new CARB Tier I thru Tier IV standards engine timing is not so easy to set (if at all) similar to the auto industry.
Yes, I have driven both in 41 years in the lift truck industry and have studied Fuel & Lubricants in pusuit of a BS Degree in Automotive Engineering & Technology. Meaning we read about then went to the lab and did test, tore em down, etc, etc.
Maybe you gotta drive one to know how they operate. There was lots of doggy conversions done years ago but you can't tell what I'm burning if your in the passenger seat. It is truly that good. I haven't replaced a valve seat yet.
Take if from someone who has had 2 or 3 propane vehicles for almost 24 years.
LPG fuel has 80-85% of the BTU value when compared to gasoline. The actual difference depends on if the LPG is butane or propan or a mixture of both. Therefore, one can expect a drop of power of 15-20% when converting from gasoline to LPG. CNG has about 80% of the BTU value as propane - one reason CNG is now a fad of the past in the lift truck world.
Most HP & torque ratings on lift truck specification sheets are based on gasoline fuel performance (except Linde) everybody likes to see the big numbers. Strange as in the US about 90% of the units 12K and below operate on LP fuel. The % of solid (or cushion tire) forklifts is about 95%+
A little fact learned from my college days. It takes about 6 HP to maintain a travel speed of 60 MPH in your automobile (assuming a flat road and not running into the winds of Hurricane IKE). This would explain while in the cruise mode equipment will run fine but when you need to accelrate or climb a grade (when higher torque is important) they are a bit doggy
...and its ALWAYS the night shift and never the saints that work there during the day lol
i forgot this was a car discussion not a 50 year old hilo discussion lol
well if you live somewhere that your house paint and fuel still has lead in it, remember to change the seats lol
it doesn,t take much to confuse forklift drivers daveUK. 2 options for fuel wow which one can the nightshift break first.
DaveUK, you are correct on the valve seat issue. Starting 1975 model years, US auto mfg's started using hardened valve seats to accomodate unleaded fuel.
If the motor was originally built to run on unleaded the seats and valves will allready be hardened. There must be a start date in the automotive industry for the introduction of unleaded over leaded.
o and dont forget part of the conversion is pulling the head and installing hardened valve seats, the gasoline seats will deteriorate from the LPG
LPG has only 66% efficiency when compared to gasoline
so it sort of evens out when you compare prices at the pump
gasoline is easier to handle
spill a lil gas (we call gasoline "gas" here not petrol) no big deal
spill a little LPG you may be goin to the hospital with freezer burns
i know i can handle LPG but John Q Public im not so sure
and the same guy refueling hydrogen - i shudder to think lol
i could have sworn in 2000 when i was in Arizona i seen on the news that Az had an alternative fuels program where the state reimbursed you for the conversion to your car - it nearly bankrupted the state - though i cant find the story in archives
With this system the engine starts on gas and switches to propane when the engine temp reaches about 20C. Works slick and is a good environmental choice over gasoline. Don't leave home without it!
LP gas is pretty common in the UK now, you still have to search for a fill up station tho, dual fuel forklifts confuse the s**t out of operators as the switches are labeled gas or LPG. Dummys switch to gas thinking its is LP cos we call gas petrol!! ha ha
We had some propane service vehiclesin Ontario in the 80's. A lot of them were not replaced with LP when fuel injection came out. I have run LP for 20+ years. The 2 latest are propane injection. Duel fuel and work off the computor and run injectors in to the intake. Works great and only lose about 5%- 10% on the mileage. Works great. Lots of it going on in Europe.
Back in the 80's I worked for an Alis Chalmers dealer and some of our vans were dual fuel. A little doggy in LP mode at the start, but cruising was no problem.
JD hit the nail on the head. Big Oil controls this country and has for years. If other countries are making the change, then that tells me that it is possible to do so.
Something has to change, we can't keep going like we have.
All they need to do is see what Amerigas and some of the other LP providers are doing. Most of their delivery trucks run on propane.
I have seen cars using lp in Australia and other countries and it seems to be successful. I guess bottom line here in US is the power of the oil company and people being afraid of something new.
Here down under LP gas for cars is a common option, just about every taxi is also on LP gas. most service stations have the pumps etc for filling, at the moment a litre of gas is around 50% of a litre of petrol. my own car is duel fuel with a 75 litre gas tank plus a 75 litre petrol tank, space in the boot is lost by the fitting of the gas tank.
i have no problem filling up with gas, it is as easy as filling up with petrol, performance wise the car will use around 2 litres per 100 Km more on gas than petrol. Overall very happy with the system.
BR Ian
Going right a long with edward t, There is the "Fear' issue people have with the thought of a tank of pressurized flammable gas in the car and the issue of "refiiling"
E-85 ethonal vehicles dubbed "Flex-Fuel" are great but fuel stations are limited to larger cities.
Lp or CNG powered vehicle owners would be faced with an even bigger problem.
I have seen many companies use LP powered vehicles mostly
light to medium duty trucks and vans, but they have a fueling station on site.
The idea in theory is good but too many other obsticles would have to be dealt with, mainly refueling.
I am all for Lp or CNG fuel cars, but the general public will have to be educated as to the benefits and be able to refuel there cars in a simple, safe and "Convienient" manner or they will not consider it.
there is no reason to expect LPG not to go through the same "shortage" as soon as it became more popular.
your Honda might run perfectly, but that gallon of LPG at 2.22 a gal will not go as many miles as a gallon of Gasoline.
it used to be a fairly common thing for the conversion, and most every LPG wholesale company had a shop doing the conversions, after C.A.R.B. got involved it got a lot more complicated to do a conversion and get the needed certifications. it also was a lot more obvious about the differences in power (at 70 HP and you loose 2% of your power, you didn't even loose 2 HP, but at 300HP, the loosing 2% is a more noticeable 6 HP). (and 2% is just a guess)
cheaper fuel is not less expensive unless it produces the same BTUs/HP/KVW (amount of work) for the LESS $, (not the same $)
one of the things I have noticed about the change was that "dual fuel" (LPG or Gasoline) really works now. I used to think was a cruel joke on forklift techs, (the switch only shut off one fuel or the other, and made no changes to timing or spark gap) and when CARB came out, dual fuel really worked, but almost no one wanted to purchase a gasoline powered truck anymore, only LPG...
Forkliftaction accepts no responsibility for forum content and requires forum participants to adhere to our rules of conduct. Click here for more information.
If you are having trouble using the Discussion Forums, please contact us for help.