Discussion:
Code of Ethics for selling forklifts on the internet

Should there be a code of ethics when selling forklifts on the internet? What information should sellers volunteer / provide? What questions should buyers ask?
Thanks to "edward t" and "bbforks" for starting this thought process in a previous discussion thread. Please give us your thoughts.
  • Admin
  • Posted 4 Dec 2013 10:52
  • Modified 4 Dec 2013 14:04 by administrator
  • Discussion started by Admin
  • Queensland, Australia
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Showing items 1 - 15 of 34 results.
An end user who buys a forklift unseen over the internet needs their head examining. They have no idea of specs, condition or reputation. To pay the freight to return it would be a huge portion of the purchase price, if available.
Dealer to dealer over the internet sales are more common because of knowledge and reputation.
Talk of a code of ethics and rules and regulations is pure fairy tales. Who and why will support it? What competive advantage will it give a dealer? Non when a cheapie charlie dealer is willing to undercut and lie.
The best might be a system like Amazon or Ebay with reviews and seller ratings.
Lastly why would a customer buy off the internet when he can get a comparable deal from a local dealer who can demo the equipment?
  • Posted 16 May 2014 12:48
  • Reply by andrew_j
  • Florida, United States
I learn from my customers and mistakes
This is where an association w/ a verified code of ethics would benefit both buyer & seller. A clear definition of what is being sold, what exactly the warranty (if any) would cover, etc.

I've been asking my client base this question since this thread began. It's interesting in the fact that if the customer was never burned on a purchase, then paying a premium for a used lift doesn't interest them- cheapest price wins. But, if they've been burned- paying a premium is- in their words "cheap insurance".
  • Posted 5 Mar 2014 22:42
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
Ditto with Salesmasters comment. Just knowing the original owner of the machine will probably confirm the hours are more than shown- our Hyster dealer has helped me often on a considered purchase. Occasionally you see a quirk though. I purchased a 2000 model H120XM a couple of years back (Perkins diesel) that hit our local Craigslist. Rental specs, and 850 true hours! It still had the original seat, SP tires and even the light bulbs!! The truck was not hurt other than having to reseal most of the hydraulic cylinders from hardened seals that had been unused for a few years. A large camper outlet had purchased it new to unload inventory as it arrived. A couple of other thoughts...Why so many hydraulic lines replaced? Did they get damaged during operation? Also, you have a Fortis model, so it is defiantly EEC and would have history stored. My biggest concern is the oil leak and the fact that your service company is willing to lose you as a customer to avoid making the leak repair. You didn't say, but you probably have an LP unit and that means a GM 4.3. These guys can be very challenging when trying to isolate an engine oil leak. There are several variations. The common leaks are the front crankshaft seal- requiring a new composite front cover, the oil pan "gasket" and the rear engine seal. It's usually better to address all three if you commit to pulling the engine to replace the suspected leaking rear seal.
  • Posted 5 Mar 2014 19:51
  • Reply by Forkliftt
  • Louisiana, United States
Steve
steve at forkliftt dot com
You need to call and speak to the service manager or sales department and just give them the serial number and what you want, the stupid field tech was just lazy and did not want to go the extra mile, I work for a Hyster dealer, it takes 2 min to run a serial number in the Hyster network site.
  • Posted 5 Mar 2014 18:53
  • Reply by salesmaster
  • Arizona, United States
Mdmetalman: I think you had the dealer confirm that what you really bought was an hour meter with a truck attached to it as the rear main seal apparently has enough hours on it to qualify to leak.
As far as additives- what do you have to lose by trying it- As you will only still have to repair it if it fails?
  • Posted 5 Mar 2014 12:41
  • Reply by gatorman
  • Pennsylvania, United States
I have no input on the additive- I'm not a big fan of additives. I would try checking the engine's breather assy (PCV valve, breather vent, etc) for blockage. I've seen breathers coke up & the internal pressure will eventually find the weakest link, which is sometimes the rear main seal.

As far as the hours on the machine, I never trust a used lifts hour meter.
  • Posted 5 Mar 2014 11:29
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
Thanks everyone for your input. I spoke with a Hyster Dealer and they could not help me on info on service done or who owned it before. I was told by the company I purchased the truck from that they would suggest adding MACS a oil additive to help leak on rear main seal. They are saying rear main seals do not get replaced until around 8000 to 10,000 hrs they believe that the seal is dry and would seal up adding a additive to the oil. What are all your thoughts on adding something to oil to slow up leak??
  • Posted 4 Mar 2014 23:54
  • Reply by Mdmetalman
  • Maryland, United States
I'd have to agree with salesmaster- having a dealer come in & give an assessment by accessing the on-board computer would be a good idea. Now that the machine is yours at least you'd know where you stand with it & could budget accordingly.

The only thing I can think of as far as the leak is that you state that it has always leaked ( at least a little) as long as you've owned it but now it's getting worse- perhaps if you read the warranty that specific issue is not covered because of a "pre-existing condition". I have learned the hard way that selling a truck with a known issue which both parties (me & my customer) agree to can turn ugly very quickly when the issue gets worse. Suddenly the lower price they paid is a distant memory. It's because of issues like these I no longer sell forklifts.

I don't know if 25 grand is a high/low price for your unit, maybe someone could chime in & give some guidance in that arena.
  • Posted 4 Mar 2014 23:27
  • Modified 4 Mar 2014 23:28 by poster
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
MDmetalman, I believe within my opinion and experience you bought a wholesale unit with 12,000 hours which shows 2100 hours, if you really want to know the entire real story about what you bought, call your local Hyster dealer and pay for a full inspection of condition. First thing the Hyster dealer will do is run the serial number which will In turn give them a factory build report. That report will show the dealer who ordered the unit, which customer bought the unit. Then you can contact the selling dealer of the unit with the serial number and speak to service department about service records and hours. I am willing to bet I am right.

Most S120FT units in your part of the country are in 10,000 hour, 60 month applications , paper, auto, ports, machine shops, etc!
It is very uncommon to find used forklifts made in 2007 with 2100 hours. The average or industry benchmark usage is 140 hours per month.

Now I am sure this information will upset a few people in the used truck business. This simple procedure can be done on any lift truck. I'm sure your service company meant no harm, after all they are just going off the hour meter that has flipped over. I always explain to customers to spend the $300-$400 for a dealer OEM inspection before purchasing a used lift truck from a non-selling dealer or used equipment independent. Most late model lift trucks are equipped with a computer which logs hours, transmission miles etc. only the dealer for the brand in question has the laptop software to perform this inspection.

All of these used equipment guys or service companies who sell used equipment, buy there equipment from a wholesaler. 75% of the equipment a wholesaler buys is from leasing companies, banks, and dealers. The dealers have first pick of all off lease equipment from the leasing companies. After the dealers cherry pick the great units to sell in there used equipment department, the tired units are then sold off to wholesales around the country, then sold off to used equipment companies, service companies and export.

Now there are some really great used equipment guys who really know what there buying and selling. They take the time to get the real story, they check compression, transmission pressure, pull wheels and inspect brakes, hub bearings, check fluid lines, verify hours.

But most do not!!!!!!! Hope this helps!
  • Posted 27 Feb 2014 14:57
  • Reply by salesmaster
  • Arizona, United States
MDmetalman, I believe within my opinion and experience you bought a wholesale unit with 12,000 hours which shows 2100 hours, if you really want to know the entire real story about what you bought, call your local Hyster dealer and pay for a full inspection of condition. First thing the Hyster dealer will do is run the serial number which will In turn give them a factory build report. That report will show the dealer who ordered the unit, which customer bought the unit. Then you can contact the selling dealer of the unit with the serial number and speak to service department about service records and hours. I am willing to bet I am right.

Most S120FT units in your part of the country are in 10,000 hour, 60 month applications , paper, auto, ports, machine shops, etc!
It is very uncommon to find used forklifts made in 2007 with 2100 hours. The average or industry benchmark usage is 140 hours per month.

Now I am sure this information will upset a few people in the used truck business. This simple procedure can be done on any lift truck. I'm sure your service company meant no harm, after all they are just going off the hour meter that has flipped over. I always explain to customers to spend the $300-$400 for a dealer OEM inspection before purchasing a used lift truck from a non-selling dealer or used equipment independent. Most late model lift trucks are equipped with a computer which logs hours, transmission miles etc. only the dealer for the brand in question has the laptop software to perform this inspection.

All of these used equipment guys or service companies who sell used equipment, buy there equipment from a wholesaler. 75% of the equipment a wholesaler buys is from leasing companies, banks, and dealers. The dealers have first pick of all off lease equipment from the leasing companies. After the dealers cherry pick the great units to sell in there used equipment department, the tired units are then sold off to wholesales around the country, then sold off to used equipment companies, service companies and export.

Now there are some really great used equipment guys who really know what there buying and selling. They take the time to get the real story, they check compression, transmission pressure, pull wheels and inspect brakes, hub bearings, check fluid lines, verify hours.

But most do not!!!!!!! Hope this helps!
  • Posted 27 Feb 2014 14:57
  • Reply by salesmaster
  • Arizona, United States
Mdmetalman,
i believe i would make them give you a copy of what that 90 day warranty covers. In most cases it would cover the power train and engine as most usually do.

As far as this "rental ready" thing they speak of? Well rental trucks have to run and be in good shape too... just because its a rental truck doesn't give them the option to sell or rent a truck that leaks or has in bad condition. Sounds to me like they have already spent more on it than they wanted and they are trying to weasel out of the support they promised. Not to mention they obviously did not check the truck out well enough (or they knew what was going on and dumped it on you all well knowing what was wrong with the truck.)

If the warranty is still valid i would make them do it because if the deny it they are in void of THEIR contract and you can burn em a new one if you know what i mean ;o)

20yrs of business down the drain? that seems strange they would let that go.
  • Posted 27 Feb 2014 02:39
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
I am an end user and purchased a Forklift from our Local Forklift service company that has done service for us for the last 20 years.
They sold us a 2007 Hyster S120FT with 2100 hours for $25,000 as a "Rental Ready Unit" with 90 day warranty. Since the purchase they have had to replace the entire brake system, 5 Hydraulic lines and now the rear main seal is leaking oil all over the floor.
Since we have had this truck we have had an oil leak but now its getting worse. It is still under the 90 day warranty period and I am being told by the company we purchased this truck from the leak is not under the warranty that it was sold as a "Rental Ready" Forklift. Wow now we have a truck that leaks but this local company we have done business with for over 20 years is going to loose all our business from here on out because it was sold as Rental Ready. I agree their needs to be a clear definition when selling or purchasing a forklift.
  • Posted 27 Feb 2014 00:47
  • Reply by Mdmetalman
  • Maryland, United States
I do agree that you can't fix stupid. As long as the buyer knows the risk & is willing to take the chance-well- as you said- good luck. The challenge I'm talking about is when a truck is misrepresented by a bottom feeder. I've had multiple customers in the past few years purchase lifts on line after I've advised them of the scammers out there. In the end none of them saved any money after my service calls were completed bringing these hunks of junk back to serviceable condition.
  • Posted 18 Feb 2014 10:29
  • Reply by bbforks
  • Pennsylvania, United States
bbforks (at) Hotmail (dot) com
Customers love technology- until they have to pay to fix it!
By "educating" the customer we are also "teaching" the scammers what it take to be ethical. I have a problem with that.
  • Posted 17 Feb 2014 22:42
  • Reply by duodeluxe
  • United States
duodeluxe
One more thing also, I do explain all the differences, point out all the questions to ask! I even go as far to say, go and look at the yard of the company youre buying this unit from or Google Earth it if its out of state and look at their yard. Some of these internet special guys look like a salvage yard or junk yard. Of course I would not say that, to a customer.

The ones I really enjoy talking about are the ones that use the word wholesaler or equipment wholesaler, really. I asked a customer once if he would buy a car from Jose Auto Sales No Credit Needed, the customer answered **** no, I then asked him so why would you consider some internet guy 1200 miles away with no unit records or warranty, the customer then answered, because the unit looks nice and its in the money for what I want.

Just to be clear though, there are some really great used equipment companies that have integrity and honesty. I personally know of some of them.
  • Posted 17 Feb 2014 16:10
  • Reply by salesmaster
  • Arizona, United States

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