like that 1 Ed? lol

unless the center of gravities are set up for towing
i dont see a company saying its cool to do, or the tow weight limit is prob 250lbs (17.9 stone lol)

also remember that a forklifts weight counterbalances the load
with a jack the load is in the center of the wheelbase so they dont need to be 8500 lbs

i call a walkie tow tractor a "tug" i think thats the best solution for pushing or pulling things on wheels

with walkies youre supposed to brake by reversing direction
i see way too many brakes wear out real fast cause they use them as service brakes (theyre parking/deadman brakes)

some trucks will do this automatically
yale EC orderpickers, when you remove your foot from the deadmans pedal
the truck auto applies regen to stop the truck then applies the brake after about 2 seconds

glad to see that your persistence and dedication to safety seemed to pay off craig

i think pushing and pulling is a violation whether or not youre working with a load thats above the rated load (in most cases) because the machine wasnt designed to work that way

Thanks guys. I had alot of helpful comments. I contacted both Toyota's product support and spoke with OSHA's Assistant Regional Director here in Milwaukee.

My results from Toyota's product support were that the forklift wasn't being used correctly and we should be using a Tow Tractor which is specifically designed for our needs.

OSHA a little more vague. Not really sure if using a forklift for pushng and pulling with a heavier load than the maximum lifting capacity of the vehicle is an OSHA violation. He did however say that our method of moving our loads was not safe and in itself was and OSHA violation. His suggestion was to file a complaint. That won't happen.

I went a little higher up the corporate ladder at my employer with the information I had from both OSHA and Toyota and was told that an 8000 lbs. forklift would be ordered.

Persistance pays off.

I think that the biggest misunderstanding in this business is forklift de-rating. I believe that if a typical customer asks for a quote on a vanilla 5,000# pneumatic with a 189" triple mast and side shifter then they will be quoted on a base 5,000# capacity truck. Well most trucks that I know that are equipped that way de-rate to about 3700# capacity.
What I want to know is how does it get explained away when the truck is delivered and the customer looks at the capacity plate? The only things that I can figure is either the customer doesn't care, the customer doesn't understand or the dealership tells the customer that the 3700# capacity is only at full lift height and that it is OK to lift 5,000# at lower heights.

I think the real (as in "correct") answer for the craig_h's company would be to use the proper sized forklift, and pick up and carry the load safely.

I agree with Craig_h's opinion that the dealer's sales person was using a cop out, after all, he got the sale because he specified a fleet of 200+ units that were under capacity for the job they are doing now.

I can just see that conversation dragging the "safety guy" into it,,,
sales manager to safety guy;"what ever answer you give, do NOT admit we should have specified a larger capacity unit" so the letter the salesman types says; "He stated that the capacity on the forklift is the lifting capacity only."
What the -sales- man's letter does not do is give you any exact quote, but makes it "sound" as if the safety guy (while looking up at the bus he just got thrown under) says "we see it all the time", while in fact he may have only been willing to say "the capacity is -lifting- capacity" and the rest of his statement -might- have been "and you are on your own after that" or it may have been "200+ forklifts sale, this must be a sale that means you take me fishing in the Florida Keys"...

Using an undersized tug/tow-tractor just because it can move something is not safe, (it better be able to stop it also), but if what you are moving really is within the specs of the unit, I expect the manufacturer to have taken the steps needed to insure that what they sold really is what they sold.
I have had interesting discussions with OSHA employees over the fact the regulation does not use the word "seat belt" (it's an "operator restraint system, and that means the hip or shoulder restraints on a forklift seat are OEM safety measures, and so may not be replaced with a less safe seat without the hip or shoulder restraints"), and that there is no documentation requirement for the pre-operational per shift check, just that the check must be done, they don't have to keep a record, and the OSHA guy pointed that out to me, not the other way around.
Speaking of OSHA, one of the things I have run into is some forklift company sales person trying to get some business, offering "OSHA compliance inspections" when cold calling customers. The customer thinks he is getting inspected, and gets told he needs tires, forks, strobe and bac-a-larm and updated training, and he should call this particular dealer's service department to arrange the repairs and training.
My customer thinks this person's business card he first offered was designed to include something that looked like a federal seal and said "OSHA inspection", but the dealer's service dispatcher (who's business card the sales person left) does the best (60s USA TV show; Hogan's hero's Sgt. Shultz) "I know nothing".

I know for a fact that there is at least one major forklift manufacturer that promotes using their forklift trucks in towing applications.
Those of you that are familiar with the scope of trucks made know that there are walkie tow "tractors" that are only made for towing. Just curious, if you needed to tow a 6,000# load would you feel more comfortable using a small walkie truck that has miniature brakes and weights maybe 1,000# including the battery or be sitting inside of a forklift truck that weighs 8,500#.
I would say that most people in this forum know "weigh" more about forklift trucks than the "fine" people at OSHA. Just ask them if a strobe light and a backup alarm are required on a forklift truck. Their knee jerk reaction will be "of course". I don't think so. Check again

Justinm said; "id like to weigh in too"
(groan) very punny,,

craig, i see you arent using the "tow" pin to move the load
but id like to weigh in too lol
many ppl misunderstand what the pin is for due to its name (or what some perceive its name to be)
tow actually implies moving of the machine on a flatbed tow truck
i prefer to call them recovery pins so towing isnt implied

forklifts are never designed to tow a load (as your manuals should say kids ;] )
think about it
if you add a load to the rear of the machine what happens to the center of gravity?
where would the rear fulcrum be? the steer axle
most of the counterweight is behind the centerline of the steer axle making for some very dangerous physics

aside from that

the term "material handling" is a broad term used for our entire industry, which includes much more than just forklifts
if you have material and it needs to be handled, in one form or another, then we're the industry you call

tugs pallet jacks even automated pickers all fall under "material handling"

a "forklift's" true technical name is an "industrial lift truck"
lifting is implied in its description

to move these tubs you would have to apply some lifting pressure to overcome the friction of the ground, however minimal, and obstacles (garbage, broken pallet pieces, etc)

the load center and overall weight are WAY out of range
i would see an issue

i think electric pallet jacks (rider) rated for 8000lbs (toyota makes them) could handle the load safer
or even a tug
maybe they can talk to toyota about modifying something to handle your unique "material handling" issue

a forklift probably isnt the best solution

and like ed said how do you lock the load to the machine so it doesnt slip off when reversing or braking while traveling fwd ?

I think Craig has fully covered his own self in case of accident, if it results from a loose container, BUT...
I ain't no lawyer,,,
I bet if someone gets hurt from a loose cart slipping away from the forks, your boss will get to talk to one.

What is unsafe and what is "ilegal" can be difficult to point out to people that may not want to hear what you are saying, and those words have different definitions to different people, I would urge a great deal of diplomacy in just how this point is made.

Unless someone ever gets hurt, or there is damage to the building or machinery, then no one can claim any damage from the way they are doing things.

I know OSHA can move so slow that a snail wold look like it's last name was Earnhardt, in comparison.

Read your operators manual, if it says you can drop it off a cliff, then you can expect to drop it off a cliff,, if it does NOT -mention- cliffs, then you can safely assume it was NOT designed with cliff dropping as a specification.

Ask yourself, and see if you can politely mention this to your boss, that what salesman say, may not be the exact whole truth.

DuoDelux said "then I'm not sure why they are supplied with a tow pin" they are equipped with a pin to be able to transport the truck. If the operator manual says it was designed to tow, then by all means tow.
I would ask you both to visit the "itsdf dot org" website, (the Industrial Truck Standard Development foundation) and download (and maybe read) the standards.

29CFR1910.178 "Only loads within the rated capacity of the truck shall be handled."
Seems pretty clear to me, what part of "within" is not being understood?
You ask; "Why are there forklifts only designed for lifting and not pushing or pulling?"
Forklifts are specially designed for a special job. Bulldozers are also specially designed for a special job. Tugs are also specially designed for a special job. Often the same company sells all those types pf vehicles, but gives considerably different instructions about their different operational abilities.
Bulldozers push, tugs pull, forklifts (or lift trucks) pick up and carry.

Are you upset because you think that towing this load is a dangerous practice or is there another reason?
If forklift trucks were not designed to tow a load then I'm not sure whay they are supplied with a tow pin. Nevertheless I have never heard where simply towing a load is a dangerous practice.
Towing in the forklift truck is industry is measured in draw bar pull which takes into consideration such things as coefficient of friction, incline, decline and weight of load being towed.
The danger of towing a load comes in not in the towing process but more in the braking process.
Even though I am not a Toyota fan either product or corporate wise, I do not believe what is being done is dangerous. In reality,I would expect that a 5000# capacity forklift truck can tow a 60,000# load.