Hyster sold manuals to the local Army Depot, and to Goodyear but the would not sell them rights to the program to connect a laptop to the truck, nor certain troubleshooting manuals. So far Hyster hasn't allowed anyone but dealers access to the laptop program, nor access to the dash module, that I have heard about. When Uncle Sam can't get the program, and Goodyear, who has signed a big lease program at multiple facilities can't get it, it probably won't be available for anyone outside the dealers for awhile, legally.

it would be nice to find a corporate lawyer that knows copyright and intellectual rights laws to come in here and explain it to some folks that don't seem to understand what is what about this subject.

I'm no lawyer but as i understand it the dealerships have an agreement with the manufacturers and have to do what they say when it comes to handling these type situations. And furthermore the dealerships shy away from training thier outside competition for obvious reasons, They have their own interests to protect. If they just let thier key information that provides them a source of revenue or profit go freely then their basically handing their livelihood out like a handout.

As i understand it anyone that has the money to pay for training can get it as long as they work for a dealership being represented by the said mfg. As for manuals and such, anyone can buy one over the counter. If anyone is denied that information i believe that is a dealer management decision, not the mfg. Of course i could be wrong on this point because of most everything going electronic and being distributed via internet or networking, the rules may have changed.

As for as independent tech's that own their own businesses? They may even allow them in a factory sponsored training class (at the factory training center) as long as they can pay for it, that part I'm still a bit uncertain of. I do know that companies such as cocacola have access to manuals and can get factory training but then of course they are usually working within a national account directly with the manufacturer, the dealership they deal with is just the middleman representing the factory locally. Most dealerships allow this due to the fleet purchasing relationship the customer has with the factory and allows certain courtesies.

So i wouldn't go as far to say the independent is totally left out in the dark, i believe they are just put in a scenario that cost them more than they can afford or are possibly treated as "competition" so they cant get what they need training wise due to some dealerships and thier politics or company policies.

In a nutshell why would a dealership want to train thier competition? So they can go out and take thier customers away from them? Think about it....

Whoever bought that book or album, etc from the publisher,brand new, paid the royalties due. The second hand market never has had to pay with exception of TV reruns.

But does Coke have the right to tell me who can drink it? If I buy a book at a yard sale, should I pay the publisher directly since they are loosing the royalty on the sale? The same for a record album- the list can go on & on. I understand that no one can copy something that's copyrighted, but not being able to choose who repairs something I OWN isn't the way it should be.

If you buy a Coke, does that give you the right to the recipe?

I think that innovation has both helped & hurt the industry. End users are willing to investigate & try the latest & greatest forklift ( as long as the price is within reason ) but then get stung when the unit needs service. I've seen it mulitple times- either the dealers rates are outrageous, parts are backordered or unavailable or the tech (which is supposed to be trained on these high tech machines ) can't repair the unit.

I've been called to a new customers with a brand new machine, asking if I can fix a paticular problem that the dealer can't seem to fix ( multiple calls for same symptoms- different parts put on- each service call was invoiced- customer had to call to remind dealer that unit is under warranty ). This is all inconvient & costly. At some point people start shying away technolgy knowing that it's costly to fix.

On this subject i was wondering if people think the issue of patents some times stop innovation or do you think they help innovative companies. over the last couple of decades do you think the industry as a hole has been
innovative enough ,or is it behind when you look at industries such as music and computers. who have Apple driving them forward

i believe you're purchasing the right to use/own it
sure, if you own it you can do whatever you want with it, but that is at your own risk.
If the manufacturer has designed, copyrighted and patented the product then they own whats inside it and in most cases published for it.
Even though you don't see much legal actions going on in the world of copyright infringement in the material handling business that doesn't mean it wont come to pass.
It has been in my experience with other consumer products i have witnessed duplicating and altering(in alot of cases for monetary gain) where the mfg shut down websites, sued companies and even filed civil suits against consumers for the altering of devices or firmware within said devices.
Take the music/movie industry... everyone knows how they are going after anyone they can to stop the pirating of their materials. It wouldn't be any different in the material handling business. If they see they are loosing money because of anything interfering with their profits you can bet they wont sit there and watch it happen, at least not for long.
Take for instance all the manual swapping going on here....
if the right set of eyes ran across this i'm fairly sure they would come down on the site owners pretty hard and make them take heavier measures to try and stop it. If they were unsuccessful doing that they might even take higher measures and go after end users, it all depends on how adamant they were about putting a stop to it.
On the other side take a look at mfg's like Genie or JLG for instance, they post their information on their sites for anyone that wants it. It doesn't mean you have the right to change it in any way but its there free of charge.
With our business (the lift truck business) this same information is not available to the public and is guarded behind pass-worded/fire-walled servers.

I could go on and on about this but i think I've said enough.
now....
moving along to some other thread to help someone :o)

Patents are a very tricky area. you might remember i think it was last year there were some Chinese machines removed from C mat because of patent issues. If a company is granted a patent on some part of there product you can't copy that that is the companies for 20 years. i don't even think they can copy a service manual with out the manufacturers permission. When you buy a forklift that's all you get the forklift you don't have any rights to copy anything inside the truck. It is very difficult in areas such as this because some one might design a new idea and then patent it , then some one else might look at this and change something in it to make it a bit better this is ware it can get a bit gray and you need a very good patent solicitor.

If you look at say a kalma 12 ton forklift and a HC 12 ton forklift they look very similar but most be ok because Kalmar would have stopped it in Europe. In China it might be different and patent rules might not be stuck to as they should be

In mobile phone industry many companies are suing each other because of patent issues ,each have very similar patents and then try to take each other to court , I think both Samsung and Apple are trying to sue and counter sue each other.There was also one last year with Dyson and a company in France which the French company won. Also i believe Sany is being sued by Daimler Chrysler because of the sign on there machines. These companies have very good legal departments and are quite quick to let you know if they think you have infringed there rights' I can't really think of many issues to come up in materials handling before only last year but i'm sure there would have been some

My Feeling is

You own the goods and the right to use the patent

If patents are involved then you don't own them ( to reuse ) otherwise no patent would ever hold up ???!!!

Lets have an Expert opinion from somebody

Davilift you were involved with patents can you help.

only buy the rights to use it