Discussion:
the End of Materials Handling as it is known today

The Materials Handling market is about to change. With only around six or seven of the world's manufactures serving. With in the next 10 years most warehouse will be completely different Companies like KION of China DAMATIC or TOYOTA of Japan VANDERLANDE will dominate the warehouse business with hole turnkey products. Pallet trucks, reach trucks VNA truck will all be replaced with automated equipment.

Counter balance forklift sales will also decline and be replaced with complete handling systems that will be able to move products around a facility with out the need of an operator. Out side the facility there will also be big changes Both Diesel and electric forklifts will be replaced with 100% zero emission products that will have much longer ranges then electric forklifts and will be able to handle loads up to 72,000kg while being 100% zero emission. Companies Like Hyster who have backed Hydrogen to the tune of up to $260 million investment will see this disappear as hydrogen forklifts wont be able to compete with the new technologies that will offer lower cost's ,no need for high pressure systems ,be less explosive and more cost effective than hydrogen.
  • Posted 22 Feb 2020 07:11
  • Discussion started by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future
Showing items 1 - 15 of 115 results.
Yes this is my point, hydrogen is a clean fuel and is classed as 100% zero emission and if done correctly can be produced 100% zero emission. Ammonia is the same if done correctly its 100% zero emission the only thing coming out of the tail pipe is water vaper. Ammonia can also be produced 100% zero emission. So it all depends.

If you are working on Lithium iorn batteries that are ok in forklifts up to 5,000kg the reason for this is the KWH the tuck uses per hour. Over 6,000kg the heat and oportunity charging damages the battery quicker, yes it still damages the batteries of truck under 5,000kg but not as quick.


As for HFC truck i tottaly agree they are not really any good for materials handling aplications
  • Posted 14 Apr 2020 23:56
  • Reply by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future
" Just one question do you regard hydrogen fuel cell trucks as 100% zero emission or are the companies that make these making false claims."
That is a loaded question that falls within the questionable mumbo jumbo i mentioned.
There are conflicting claims and information that just muck up the whole thing like this:
one claim says: "What type of emissions do hydrogen fuel cells create?
Hydrogen can be produced from diverse domestic resources with the potential for near-zero greenhouse gas emissions. Once produced, hydrogen generates electrical power in a fuel cell, emitting only water vapor and warm air."
Another claim says: Do Hydrogen fuel cells produce co2?
Electric cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells don't produce greenhouse-enhancing carbon dioxide.... It burns with oxygen to make water vapor, and only water vapor-no soot, no nitrous oxides, no carbon dioxide with its potential greenhouse warming.
Another claim says: When the grid is decarbonised, hydrogen fuel cells cars will deliver emissions of 17gCo2 per km, while battery electric vehicles will deliver around 6gCO2 per km. Of course, this does not mean that the electrolysers, like EV charging stations, can't be fuelled by renewable energy.
So is that zero? No it is not.
Besides, i don't count HFC as a viable product in the lift truck industry, they tried it and it was so expensive to purchase and maintain and keep technitians trained and certified nobody wants it.
  • Posted 14 Apr 2020 23:31
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
The V range will pass all air quality standards including CARB and EPA its 100% zero emission all that comes out of the tail pipe is water vaper, Just one question do you regard hydrogen fuel cell trucks as 100% zero emission or are the companies that make these making false claims.

As for li truck it would all depend on what weight you try them at. At a low weight under 5,000kg they seem ok but what you must consider is that if you are looking to fast charging. If you are looking to do fast charging you can't charge them if the battery is to cold or to hot the battery must be moderate temperature. Also, you must avoid fast charging of old and low performing batteries. On trucks over 6,000 kg that run a double shift operation the battery life of a Li battery might be as low as 24 months.
  • Posted 14 Apr 2020 23:06
  • Reply by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future
it's not just CARB its the standard set forth by EPA for nonroad-compression-ignition-2011-present vehicles it has to pass. But being he is in the UK if he doesn't bring these overseas to the US then he wouldn't have to bother with the US standards. I'm sure Euro standards are just as stringent though but i'm not familiar with their EPA environmental regulations so i can't say for sure. I'd have to do more research. Millbrook is just an orginization based in UK.
But like you said triumphrider, it has to pass this 100% he claims which i doubt it will unless they fudge the numbers or have a 'preset predetermined standard' that allows a range CLOSE to 0 or at least lower than previously used. There's always a loophole that allows such bold claims. So although it wouldn't be a 'true' zero emission, if it falls within the guidelines he can legally make the claim.
The legal mumbo jumbo set forth in the standard would allow people to make such claims unfortunately.
Knowing these basic things, people can be the judge on if they want to believe the actual zero emission claim or not. Those with even an ounce of common knowledge in IC knows it's all BS.
  • Posted 14 Apr 2020 22:48
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
Dazzlin Dave ,until your wonder truck passes California Air Resource Board as 100% it isn't going to be squat. I am going to try a LI powered unit this year to see how it stacks up. Looked at and talked to people who run the crap out of the li units and only a couple of li battery brands seem to be the best. They are not cheap. You get what you pay for.
  • Posted 14 Apr 2020 20:53
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States
Millbrook will be the people who test and certify the new trucks



Also people will cliam that Lithium iron will meen you don't need IC trucks any more, but what the Lithium people won't tell you is the issues around fast charging, how too much and too extreme fast charging damages batteries and literally, "kills the chemistry inside the battery," So the more you fast and otimum charge the more you kill the battery
  • Posted 10 Apr 2020 23:58
  • Modified 11 Apr 2020 00:06 by poster
  • Reply by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future
well that was a bunch of the standard "green" techno-babble that didn't answer the question at all Exalteze.
i believe the question was "who is doing the certifying of your truck"?
not the standards it has to meet
not the sales babble talk
not 'green' 'zero carbon' theory
not a lesson on how ammonia is being used in the development of DEF (which i'm sure is what you were insinuating in your small lecture about ammonia)

who have you gotten to certify your machine? ( i believe chrisk asked that and i just highlighted it myself)
  • Posted 10 Apr 2020 23:17
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
To answer Swoop223 question. Now at the beginning there will be some fossil fuel involvement because of how Ammonia need's to be transported from the main filling point to the customer. in fact, in the United Stated there are already 2000 miles of ammonia pipelines along with a substantial infrastructure for ammonia manufacture and distribution.

Ammonia is regularly used in refrigeration and heat pumps so its highly likely people are passing near safely stored ammonia regularly in their everyday lives at sites such as hospitals, supermarkets amongst many others

A study by the Royal Society highlight substantial savings using Ammonia in Rail, Shipping and Heavy Road Transport... in fact nearly 80% reduction to that of Hydrogen gas and a third of the costs of liquefied Hydrogen.


Ammonia could absolutely be zero carbon. you can make green Hydrogen (either with green electricity or carbon capture & storage) and green electricity you can make green ammonia. You just need a lot of green energy!

The truck itself is zero emission but the process of getting the fuel to the customer might have some emissions attached, this could also be added to battery power as the electric use could come from fossil fuel powerplants. As technologies progress then the process will use less fossil fuels and in some cases like ports that have a green ammonia plant near by for produce liquid ammonia for ships and the ammonia is piped into the port. It would be 100% completely zero emission.

As the truck is completely modular it adds benefits to companies that rent forklifts instead of purchasing them. More and More companies will rent rather than purchase, If anything what is happening at the moment will show companies that rental is better than purchase, If a company has rented a forklift with an open return option they can off hire the truck to re hire it when its needed. If a company has Purchased a truck or leases a truck they still have to pay for the truck even though them might not even be working. As the modular can easily be exchanged in case of a fault arising or for servicing or exchanged to extend the trucks life the TCO will be much lower that that of a Diesel truck.
  • Posted 10 Apr 2020 20:37
  • Modified 10 Apr 2020 20:41 by poster
  • Reply by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future
yeah wondering who he got to approve the darn thing, knowing what standards it has to meet doesn't answer the question.
but i wonder about that since he said it "will be" meaning it isn't there yet or he's just using bad interpretations of language , grammar.
If the truck was built and running he would have said "it meets" those standards.
I have a feeling by the time he actually get this thing on the market the standards will change again and push back his release once again.
AND on another note, since the global community is on the zero carbon bandwagon and pushing to eliminate fossil fuels all together how is this truck going to even be a viable product? Based on that path nobody would want to get into building anything fossil fuel driven and concentrate strictly on power sources that are NOT fossil fuel based.
Not sure if that's even possible in any form to run a forklift in any suitable fashion that's cost effective. At ANY stage of any power source development there is going to be fossil fuel involvement at some point. So in actuality he can't truthfully say it's "zero emission" because that would be a lie. But then again this is all just a play on words and terms to support a global narrative to reduce carbon emissions because global business community wants to come up with new tech. to generate more avenues to make more money.
Not the first time the earth its ecology and our involvement in it has been used to do that.
  • Posted 10 Apr 2020 05:18
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
I didn't ask what standards you are using. I asked which governing body you used to certify you met those standards, particularly the emission ones.
  • Posted 10 Apr 2020 01:21
  • Reply by ChrisK
  • Kansas, United States
The trucks will be DIN/BITA/FEM/ISO standardeds
  • Posted 10 Apr 2020 00:54
  • Reply by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future
What governing body did you use to certify your truck as 100% zero emissions?
  • Posted 9 Apr 2020 22:16
  • Reply by ChrisK
  • Kansas, United States
i bet he's having visions like James T Kirk did in star trek voyage home when they went back in time to save the earth :oD
  • Posted 8 Apr 2020 07:02
  • Reply by swoop223
  • North Carolina, United States
You've been swooped!
swoop223@gmail.com
Dazzlin dave: We will also forget about you in all due time, Seeing any colors yet?
  • Posted 8 Apr 2020 02:25
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States
The truck will be released in the fourth quarter and people will be able to see it, As for Hyster going bust i don't think they will be on their own, i believe the forklift OEM's will consolidate and their will be around four top OEM's plus Heli and Hangch from China. A lot of OEM's will go or be taken over by the main three big companies Toyota, KION and Mitubishi Logisnext. The other big group will be Crown with Dossan and Hyundai. In big truck over 10,000kg there will be only Kalmar, Kone and Sany
  • Posted 7 Apr 2020 22:30
  • Modified 7 Apr 2020 22:40 by poster
  • Reply by Exalteze
  • Halifax, United Kingdom
Exalt leading the way to a zero emission future

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