Well your analysis reinforces the basic principle of engineering that my instructors taught me over 5 decades ago in college. That is, engineering at it's best is always a compromise. The end result is that designers end up with more pluses than minuses on those proverbial + & - charts that in total best satisfies the target end users needs as defined by product management (or a different name group that does the same activity).

Have yet to see a lift truck that can lift the most weight to the highest heights, have the smallest overall foot print, turn on a "six pence" (as Sir Neville Bowman Show use to acclaim about his products), get the best overall fuel economy (which is really hard to define because the variety of application a forklift is used in) and have the latest in "creature features), with a high level of quality for longevity and be marketed at a price that is at bottom rung of the ladder scale. I worked in Product Management & Sales most of my 41 years in the lift truck industry and visited Leighton-Buzzard to meet w/ Nevile & Trevor - a unique experience for sure.

In other words engineering is just like the key to having a long & happy marriage. There will be lots of compromises with the end result of having more pluses than minuses. Had to it twice before getting it right. LOL

Well lets have a look at the new linde Truck its called the HT or BR 1411 so hows does it compare with competition. If we are to look at the 10,000kg version to start with it is lighter than the 1401 the linde hydrostatic but at just over 16 ton in weight it is heavier than most competitors only kalmar and Kone heavier. Linde this might says gives better stability but more weight means less efficient on fuel consumption. length to face of forks is just over 4.5 meters again this about mid length longer than some but not as long as others. Width is again 2.5 meters and again just average on this as well.Turn radius at 4.1 m again average not as good as some but better than others. lift speed and lower speed is 0.42 M S again is is on the low side to competitors with most doing better than this even the 1401 is better. The tilting forward cab doesn't look like it gives as good access to the engine as side or backwards tilting


So how about driver comfort it has like most the new fly by wire hydraulic controls and the same monitor system again these all add to cost. With Doosan and Hyundai using normal hand control values which do seem more popular in North America as they don't seem to like the high cost of electronics both in truck price and service costs. If think they will have problems if they go up against these trucks.

On the engine they have gone with the MTU which is in my opinion the best engine on the market good all round engine and in front of all competitors even in tier V thats still three years a way

So all in all looks just average truck but will depend on price will it be better than Hyster Yale well not really as this is lighter and shorter but if its a lot cheaper than yes it will be. You can put up with being a little bit longer and wider if the price is OK.

Hi Easy M we are to produce at the end of this year Glad for your concern and nice to see your truck as well im sure it will be a game changer.

even at this stage we are years ahead of you It is very easy to sit and comment when you have never tried to set up a manufacture

But again Thanks for the concern

Exalt, you're all hat no cattle. Produce or shut up.

Well i'm Glad you are successful,but being succesful at distribution is one thing setting up a manufacture is another. As for knocking KION i'm not knocking them just pointing some things i have noticed. Its other people that look at these in a different way. Its how you interoperate this.

Now i could say are you Knocking our project but i won't all i will say is yes we will have a couple of trucks based in Saudi later this year , yes we have our new facility in Saudi that will start production later this year , yes the new rental company and service plus will be ready for mid October... so thanks for the concern we are now doing OK.

By the way i take you don't read the press in the Middle East we feature quite well in this and as this is where the product has had the best support from Government and local companies this is where we will start. But don't worry we will be coming to Europe next year and as we deal direct we will be very competitive on price ,

And we can offer a 16 ton fully cab 1250 Laod center with the MTU4R1000 engine for under Euro 105,000 so i think we will be OK on this side as well. Because of this i don't need to knock the competition they can do that them self's quite well and don't need my help on this why would i knock a product that uses the same engine as us. The point i have made is that in my opinion KION don't seem to be the company they were four or five years ago. And in fact the 1401 with a MTU 4R100 engine would be a good truck if not a bit pricey. The hole piont this was making is KION should never of shut Merthyr they should have made the 1401 more competitive on price rather than just look and say this is the best sell truck we will do the same. And i have herd that some Management inside KION even agree now that shutting merhtyr was a mistake


I would also say we did make a mistakes talking about this project to early , and since then we don't mention it people like you keep showing your concern so we like to keep you up dated

But don't say or you are a Middle East Based company what do you guys know about building forklifts all the suppliers are top quality like MTU, Perkins engines Rexroth Boch Transmission and hydraulics

Yes I am a co owner of a successful forklift company actually Exalt which has been in business for over 30 years so no I do not work for Kion but one thing I have learnt over the years is that continually knocking the competition, as you are makes you look bad and is totally unprofessional.
You say you are successfully building a revolutionary product but I have seen no evidence of it and even the pictures on your website only show a sketch of a truck. At the end of the day the only place I have heard of your product is on here!

There is no axe to grind. KION are now not the company they were four or five years ago and as for NACCO it was them that said they were looking to sell the forklift business no one else So if you don't want people talking about you don't say you are wanting to sell the business.


I was just making the point in the market if KION don't buy NACCO they will drop out of the top two forklift manufactures. This seems important to KION and to the people who work for them. Just because you point out the faults in a organisation that will effect a lot of people in this industry you have a axe to grind.

All the points i have raised are fair some people might not like them and thats OK and some might even agree


If you had a axe to grind you would aim this at people not companies you would say XYZ from so so company what people don't like is that they know the same but just don't want to admit to this


What this post was about was the new 10 ton Linde torque truck , but what it as shown is that there is no real direction in Linde in the big truck market, no support for a product launch, and this has reflected bad on KION as it has shown their faults in the open now if that me grinding the axe again then thats OK but for the people who work for KION this must be worrying as they don't seem to have any direction in the forklift market over 10 ton and this will also come down to the other markets in the iC range

Exalt,

Evidently you have some kind of ax to grind especially when it comes to NACCO and Kion give it up just makes you look bad.

Well Danny K i take it you are one of the people who will say this , and i bet you were one of the people who said KION was not bought by the Chinese or that KION would not sell the big truck business i aslo bet you believe KION are still in the big truck business when they sell under 100 trucks a year and the competitors are selling 4 or 5 times more , and you will say that KION will be back at the top in a couple of years time when in fact they will struggle to be in the top two if they don't buy NACCO. I bet you also believed KION when forkliftaction asked them if the Chinese had bought they said no then a week later had to say yes.

I also bet you have actually set up your own forklift manufacture from scratch dealt with all the suppliers, dealt with raising the capital , dealt with sorting the buildings , dealt with all of this and now your company is very successful building what can be called a revolutionary product.



Hope so. Or do you work for KION AND JUST PROVE THE PIONT

Yawn!!! If you put as much effort into your own product as slating Kion I would think it would be out in the market place by now!!

Its not that i will ever be convinced about the new Linde product , Its more to do with this just shows how far KION are off the mark and have no real direction.. A couple of years ago KION set out its 2020 program with many people Looking to the KION management to see this through, and many investing money into KION via the stock market float.The sad truth now looks like KION will never hit their 2020 targets and will be lucky to stay a number two manufacture if Mistubishi get Unicarrier right and add junghienrich to this company.

The people who now run KION are now Clueless to the business and will see the company loose more market share over the next couple of Years. Toyota will hit them hard in their main diesel powered lift truck markets of 3,000kg in Germany and France as well as the rest of Europe.. They are piratically out of big trucks over 8,000kg and when a decent truck comes on to the market in the 6,000kg - 8,000 kg range they will be out of this as well.


So really its not just about this new 10 - 16 ton truck range all this has done is show up the KION faults. If you look at the new high cab on the 1401 it has what can only be called a rope ladder out of the cab dangerous to say the least

Now for those people who say here we go he's knocking KION again i would just like to point out that you people were probably the same people who said that the Chinese would not buy KION when they had and you probably said that KION would not sell their big truck business and close merthyr which they did.

KION is now at the start of a major crisis in the business with no real way you can see them turning it around. the very sad part of all this will be for the loyal employees who will follow the same loyal employees of Myrther Barli and basingskoke were 100's lost there jobs

These are fair points but Linde have been developing this for some time ,

But how do you answer the question to your customer who says yes i will look at this new truck how different is it to the Hyster / yale , Taylor or kalmar. Then why if Torque is so good why do i have to pay a premium for the smaller hydrostatic trucks why not just sell all torque converter trucks. Linde have always said and in my mind have been correct hydrostatic truck offer better value for money in overall life time cost. But what they are saying to the market with this is OK we can't beat the competitors so we will match them and hope you will buy it. You were right in one point the numbers will be low volume. Linde had seen the big truck sale fall from over 400 in 2007 to under 100 in 2013 now they are hoping to increase with a truck that has the same tech as their competitors but is not really in the Linde image. i think you are going to need a lot of luck trying to convince your customers in fact i think this will damage the Linde brand rather than enhance it. KION would be just better selling every thing now under the KION brand

Linde are now also going to have to contend with the new Konecranes Terex truck in this market who again will look at price


So Ok you have a customer he is looking for two new trucks a 7,000kg and a 12,000 kg truck how do you sell him the new Linde against a Cat, a Hyster/Yale , a kalmar and a Taylor. before you could say how the Linde overall life time cost's will be lower , the more efficiency of the Linde truck , the better safety of the Linde truck all due to the hydrostatic transmission. but you can't say that now because the new 12 ton truck has torque transmission

I don't think you'll ever be convinced either way, or with any arguments / facts.

Until the final truck is on US soil and has been tested by KION / Linde engineers then it makes no sense to start creating noises in the market. It'll be relatively low volume in year 1 in a new segment, the best approach is to be cautious, don't overpromise and focus on quality. This I believe is what they'll do and when it proves it's worth it'll be a much easier sell over the competition.

I for one look forward to driving the truck and benchmarking before I sell it to my customers. As it stands now and considering what I know I am quietly optimistic.

Yes you can say that some quality products do come out of China but you can't just pick and choose what products are quality and what aren't. In fact Sany produce their big truck in Germany. Is a kalmar 16,000kg forklift produced in China a poor quality truck Taillift is now owned by Toyota so are these trucks now as high as quality as a Toyota

When Apple went to enter the mobile phone market they did not look at the market leaders and say well we will just copy these and produce in China. They developed a better product that answered THE CUSTOMERS QUEST FOR MORE. What KION have done is in fact looked at what sells best in North America and just produced the same. But how will this effect the hole Linde product range when Linde on one hand say to a customer who wants a 7,000kg truck its a higher price but overall it will be lower when life time costs are looked at. then say to the same customer well this is a lower price because we are matching Hyster / yale and to beat Taylor. How can they hope to beat Taylor with the same technology. KION have a hole range of companies to compete in different areas of the market so are you saying a KION Baoli truck is as good a a KION Linde truck made in china. If not then why not both are made by KION so the standard should be the same. What linde have said before is that the technology used in the Linde truck is better allowing for lower overall life time costs but they can't say that with this new truck thats one reason they have said nothing , some one once said if you can't say anything good then say nothing at all Linde have done this quite well with the new 10- 16 ton truck. A VW car made in Czech is the same quality as a Skoda

Remember that just because it's built in China, it's not another generic low quality Chinese truck. Chinese manufacturing if done correctly can build some of the most intricate high quality products in the world, look at Apple for example. Or look at Audi, I doubt an A4 made in China is any different to A4 made in Germany/Czech.

The truck will be a league above Maximal, Heli, Sany as it has the Linde brand and engineering team behind it. The KION brand Baoli in those markets would be aimed at that level of competition, but even then it has KION standards to uphold so it's hard to compare.

I believe that it'll be priced at Hyster /Yale with the aim of beating the current industry leader Taylor in every possible metric.

We all look forward to some side by side benchmarking!

I think you are right it has been made to enter the market at a lower price than the hydrostatic truck, but so are Maximal, Sany, and Heli all Chinese made trucks. so it still goes if you want a lower cost truck then go for one of these because the Linde will be much dearer. It will see on how the price reflects against Hyster/Yale and Kalmar or the Doosan or Hyundai

Linde moved the production of the 1401 hydrostatic truck to Czech to lower cost. In the KION 20 20 program one of the aims is to make KION the most profitable forklift manufacture it looks like they want to do this by moving production to lower cost manufacturing instead of developing ways to reduce manufacturing costs'. What will be interesting will be the response from Taylor who build a good quality truck for value.

Linde still have not shown any real believe in the truck they have heavily promoted the new R14 - R20 reach truck but have yet to show in a little bit of support for this new truck. the Absence of support leaves the question still open why not

This truck will not be replacing the current hydrostat. It's purpose is to come in at a significantly lower price point to open the customer base for heavy trucks in less aggressive environments where a hydrostat isn't always needed. The quality and standards I have been told will be no different to the 1401 hydrostat. The first trucks will be arriving in the next few months and some demo's are now in process with very positive results.

The lack of 'shouting' is not through lack of belief in the truck, their passion was unmistakable. KION are serious and with their resources from what I've seen, this will be a good addition to the marketplace.

One point i have noticed is the only web site of Linde you can see this truck is Linde Australia, Not KION usa not Linde main web site not even linde heavy lift truck web site , so if Linde are not shooting about this trucks from the roof tops then why not.


If you bring out a product you believe in then say so has Linde done this no. Do linde really believe in this truck well that's to be seen

Thank you Forkingabout Linde have for years been pointing out how good Hydrostatics are and I must agree with them all testes i have seen point to hydrostatics being more productive lower overall running costs easier maintenance Toyata have had hydrostatics for years with Casab and have now adopted them to Toyota


So why if you believe in something do you go the other way. WHY because now you are a Chinese company and low cost manufacturing is all important. The Linde 1411 truck is openly said to be made in China so if you want a Chinese truck why not buy a Sany or a Helli


If you are in the US and want a good value truck then look at Taylor TX series

So few people want torque convertor fork lift trucks these days.

Hydrostat is now so in demand, even Toyota have bowed to pressure & started offering a choice of either hydrostat OR torque convertor on the smaller Tonero trucks.

Linde hydrostatic trucks where really highly regarded here in Europe, why they would want to start fitting a torque convertor & damaging there brand image is beyond me.