Swoop - A bit of stability triangle truth (basic stuff) mixed with a bit more straw man divert nonsense and ending in a conclusion that doesn't help your stance.

Back to the point in discussion with regards to tilt position as asked for in this OP and as referenced by you and Edward previously. I see no reference whatsoever to forward tilt? Can you clarify your training standard as RTFM clearly doesn't support your forward tilt stance!

We will get there in the end.

Cheers

Jonah

thats ok Jason i looked it up... actually ed brought it to my attention
very amusing considering

anyways, i know this is getting off subject again sort of...but
talking about that lift speed limiter function, i was just working on a mitsubitshi ESR20N this morning that has that same function, it only works if the truck is equipt with the height encoder though. This truck did not have one so that function was disabled. After studying the setup manual though it seems that feature is adjustable too. I thought it was a good idea for helping customize how the truck performs in the different performance modes. I think the logic software needs some tweaking though, it is alot like the zapi software and doesn't like programming changes too well, it took me several times to make the changes stick, even with the laptop software... uggh.

And getting sort of back on track here....
The lift chain adjustment from what was mentioned does play a part in positioning the forks especially when travelling, the manual does say to adjust them with level forks till they are few mm's off the ground but that is not included in the operators safety manual, it just states that if there is any problem with the lift truck to not operate it till service personel can repair it. But keeping them tilted in this way when they are fully lowered they will not drag the ground, also if tilted back.

When i worked for Yale they had the same philosophy and in their manuals had the same adjustment proceedure. So did Cat and even Mitsuibitshi i believe has the same adjustments. This would help prevent dragging the forks heels and rubbing them off so quickly. Not all mfg's are exactly the same on this but they all seem to follow suit on alot of things. Best way to know for sure is to RTFM :o)

And speaking of RTFM
i did look in one manual i was using today in the operators safety section and it does actually say to travel with the forks "level or slightly tilted back, never forward".
so... ok i apologise for that incorrect statement earlier and i'll give him that one but thats the only one he gets ;o)

I also took the liberty to look in the hyster operator safety manual and it has a paragraph that states "A lift truck is less stable when the forks are raised, with or without a load. Most operators can understand the need to be careful when handling loads. But some operators do not realize that a tipover can occur with an empty lift truck because similar dynamic forces are present. The lift truck will actually tip over easier when empty, then when loaded with the load lowered. Backward tilt, off center load, and uneven ground will aggravate these conditions."

Now it does go to say in a later paragraph to lift and lower the load with the forks level or tilted slightly backward. Same as mcfa's recommendations on thier travel position but then again in yet another paragraph in the "traveling" section it states When traveling with the load lowered, keep the load against the carriage, the forks retracted and the forks tilted fully backward. This action will help keep the load on the forks and give good forward and side stability.
The next paragraph states :
Travel with the lift mechanism raised only enough to clear the ground, base arms or obstacles. When any part of the mast is raised, with or without a load, the stability of the lift truck is reduced. The ability of the lift truck to resist side tipping can be less for a lift truck that is not carrying a load than it is for a lift truck that is carrying a load in the lowered (travel) position. Therefore, a lift truck without a load is more likely to tip sideways, especially in a turn, than a lift truck with a load, provided the load is carried in the lowered position.

So what hyster is saying is when lifting and lowering its "level or 'slightly' tilted back" , the same with mcfa.
when carrying a load it full tilt back.
So based on hysters theory on backward tilt, the truck is less stable with the forks tilted back, loaded or unloaded (even when lowered) unless it has a load on it.

if you would like copies of these i can send them to you if you like


oh... theres no need to apologise jason... what was said was said...
people can make up their own minds about it.

Good luck on your venture on that site.

Never heard of a speed limiter on forks leading this would defiantly be useful on our reach trucks. The trucks we have at the moment are new and a high spec I will check with our engineer tomorrow to see if they have this function.

Thanks.

Sorry swoop

I'm not able to tell you what a straw man is ?

The truck manufacturer states that when the forks are parallel to the floor there should be between 10mm & 15mm clearance between the bottom of the fork & the floor.

The speed limiting functions when the mast is reached out / raised in to main lift / travelling forks first are standard equipment on this family of reach trucks - all the different functions just need to be turned ON or OFF by a technician as the customer wishes.

As for lift chain adjustment it depends on the truck, some mast designs wont allow the forks to clear the floor when fully lowered & some other mast designs can actually snap the lift chains if there adjusted incorrectly trying to get the forks clear of the floor.

Forkingabout

Thanks for your comment
I believe that the load chain is set so when parked the heels of the forks are just off the floor. The speed limiter that slows the truck with the reach extended I have seen before, we have a speed limiter in-case the operator drives with his forks raised. But this dosnt happen at the depot I work because the consequences of doing this is not worth it.

forgive my ignorance of certain foreign phrases and words but...
whats a straw man?

All the customers reach truck's I look after, the operator's are trained to fully tilt back on the forks loaded or unloaded when travelling, this also helps stop wear on the fork's when unloaded ( none of mine drag along the floor, chains always adjusted correctly )

All the newer reach truck's I look after also go a lot slower forks first OR with reach extended to encourage the driver to operate the truck correctly - these features can be turned off but the management & trainers wanted it left switched on.

Swoop, please lets do away with the straw man and hyperbole. This is a discussion, a debate about training standards. I am fully aware that we do things differently and therefore have a difference in opinion. I accept that. I don't need reminding of it. No agenda, other than to determine what your training standards is for fork position. Nothing hidden in that. I've been quite clear. If you don't know then say so. No big deal. If you do know, all you need to do is state it. simple really. Just cut the defensive straw man stuff. It indicates that yours is an opinion only.

You are man enough to swing by and write a 728 word post demanding statistics for 'ankle/leg', and pose questions, give your opinions and clearly state "lets see how this discussion turns now ;o".

You got your discussion. This is how its turned. Surely you can stick around and answer? It is a legitimate question and your response is noted. My stance is clear. Given the requests for verifiable evidence and statistics (your rules) etc I am trying to establish why yours and others opinions differ even in a matter of a few weeks.

I read your post of 25 June 2014 perfectly the first time and second time. I screenshot it for posterity. It says the same. It was this comment I was referring too:-

Quote - "Is it that difficult to drive with forks tilted back?
it only requires a predetermined decision by the operator to decide when he is going to have to level the forks when approaching a pallet or load. That is not that difficult. And it makes him tilt back after grabbing the load to insure safe load carrying. Hope this explains it - Unquote.

Reads clearly to me that you are questioning what is wrong with us using back tilt as it " is not that difficult"! That was most definitely you stating a personal opinion! Please clarify why that has changed?

Perhaps if your opinions weren't so inconsistent and you could clarify to what training standard you are trained to then I wouldn't need to ask. You seemed very opinionated earlier on in the discussion and I thought you would have the answers.

Can you clarify or are your opinions just that, opinions?

Cheers

Jonah

well Johah
if you had read my post more carefully instead of looking for supporting bits inside the comments to support your ajenda here
you would see i was not personally or professionally saying "I" thought that was the best way to operate the lift. "I said" and i quote
"alot of accidents on lift trucks are due to operators not carrying the load correctly. I can only assume the mfg is just trying to idiot proof the situation forcing the operator to tilt back to insure load stability."

note i said "i assume"
that is not me stating fact, it is an assumption from information i could not verify or disclaim at the time i posted it.

Now instead of throwing out knee jerk reactions and picking apart what we say here to support your stance on this, might i suggest being less argumentative and more assertive with helpful comments? I mean seriously now.. you are now attacking anyone that has an opposing opinion whether its warranted or not and manipulating their comments from this discussion to suit whatever it is YOU are trying to achieve here.

I've said enough and will not be responding to these type comments any longer.

Have a nice day :o)

Hi Joe - thank you for your input.

In relation to the tilt positioning of the forks unladen and laden.
UK training standards, instructional techniques and the safe practices we employ are quite clear with this. I have already referenced the standards we follow and who sets them. No made up S*** required and certainly no re-inventing of any wheel.

There are no deviations from the basic and fundamental methods we use and practice. The positioning of the forks is a fundamental method and safe practice we teach and is standard throughout the FLT training industry here. It may not be liked by some but that is the way it is.

Un-laden = Forks raised clear of the ground sufficient for the working environment with forks tilted backwards. The reasoning for this has been explained.

Laden = Forks and load raised clear of the ground sufficient for the working environment with sufficient stabilising back tilt to support and stabilise the load and the truck.

These techniques are very clear during training and testing and are subsequently re-enforced during refresher training every 3 to 5 years. Refresher training is specifically designed to bring all operators back to the safe practices taught and iron out any unsafe practices and bad habits gained, such as positioning of forks. We test both practically and theoretically on this specific issue and faults/points are awarded on a test for incorrect safe practice and incorrect answers. No ambiguity whatsoever.

This method cannot be altered by the wishes or insistence of a customer, business or individual, regardless of who they are, how big they are or how good/bad there safety record is.

That is the position here in the UK and it is quite clear.

Given that there appears to be so much said here about the need for statistics and independently verifiable statistics, and wanting to hold you to your own standard of evidence, what is the current recognised safe practice in the USA (OSHA) for positioning of the forks, if any, and what independently verifiable statistics have been used to determine that positioning?

Seems to be an inconsistency in opinion amongst instructor and tech guys on this and in this thread.
Cheers
Jonah

Swoop - You highlight some very important issues in the opinions you have and based on the experiences that you have had.

Have you changed your opinion since your post of 25 June 2014 as you appear to champion the forks tilted backwards in that post yet you now champion the forks tilted forward.

Cheers

Jonah

No argument here Jason. I'm right for what we do. You know it too. Certainly no points scoring from my perspective. I have absolutely no need to score points here or anywhere else.

I answered your question correctly and professionally. You decided to take it as an insult and deem most of it as irrelevant and your fellow straw man here took it upon himself to continue with it. I suggest you re-read the question you asked and re-read the response you actually got in that post. You where both wrong to react they way you did. I don't much care for Edwards opinion. It is irrelevant to the discussion in hand but you asked a question that we wouldn't expect from an ITSSAR instructor. My response was to suit.

Cheers

Jonah

Ok Jonah I guess I got this forum wrong. Not going to rise to your last comment, This is my last comment on this thread. I'm here to talk about training issues not to score points on **** for tat arguing, you lot carry on.

Regards Jason.

All good here Jason. Just telling it as it is here in the UK. Pity you didn't acknowledge it.

You are getting quite a few raised eyebrows from fellow instructors here who are wondering why you asked such a question and why you chose to do it here rather than over at the ITSSAR website.

Cheers

Jonah