Hi Snowman

It's not that simple. Firstly the forks themselves have a rating that has to be checked - it varies in its own right in respect of distance from the forkface.
Secondly the carriage and its support chains have a rating - you will appreciate that the chains have a safe working limit which relates to the weight of the carriage and forks plus the rated load of the forklift. The rating of those chains may only allow 5000 lb to be lifted safely ever - any increase above 5000 lb could lead to premature failure of the chains. Note that these chains are subjected to high loads in travel with bounce, and an off-centre load could mean one chain is supporting the whole load.
Finally, there is the issue of forward stability - tip-over. A much heavier load means that under braking there is greater force trying to tip the forklift over - for most small forklifts a load equal to 40% of the rated load carried with its centre of mass 800 mm above the floor may cause it to tip over under full braking. A 200% load would cause it to tipover at a fraction of full braking!

Question: Can my 5000 lb lift truck lift 9 or 10000 lb at a 12" center. You say we double the load center we cut in half the load roughly. I think we have increased capacity closer. We don't agree at our shop. To me if the machine remains stable and it does not go on relief valve then it works. No more strain on chains or forks etc. in my opinion.

As I have mentioned several times throughout this board, the problem lies with the enforcers. I am not sure what occurs in other countries however I do find a lack of dedication on the part of government. As long as they allow things as John mentioned to go on, then why should management care whether they have readable plates, propely trained staff, and so on.

When it snowstorms here in Ottawa (Canada, for that matter) no one is thinking about forklift training. When it is too hot, too cold, too snowy, too rainy, too windy, shortened weeks, weeks before shortened weeks, weeks after shortened weeks, hunting season, summer season, Christmas and so on, companies find a reason to procrastinate. Whether they are extremely busy or extremely quiet, it is all the same. Why? Because labour ministries do not enforce the law, and companies figure that they can get away with it.

So misinformed plates, clipboards covering plates, rusted plates, missing plates, lousy trainers, CD and online courses, all rest with the responsibility of government, and as long as they sit in their offices because it is too hot, too cold and so on, and not out in the field enforcing what they should be enforcing, we can talk til we are blue in the face, and companies will continue to procrastinate.

I said what I have to say.

Hi all

Those responsible for a workplace are required to provide the training, knowledge, skills, equipment, protective gear, procedures and culture to ensure the workplace is safe.

Those providing training are required to assist in the achievement of the goal of a safe workplace by being very careful in the information and training they provide.

THe two most basic points in forklift training are for the operator to check/determine the rating of his forklift in respect of the load to be lifted and for the operator to check the weight of the load to make sure it does not exceed the forklift rating. And as all of us invovled in training and retraining know very few operators, experienced or not, can tell you the actual ratings of their forklifts or the weight of the heaviest loads they lift.

By implication all of us trainers and all of the workplace managers and supervisors have totally failed in the most basic task of ensuring forklift operators do not overload their forklifts.

And along with that goes all the things we see to regularly - forklifts with missing rating plates, forklifts with unreadable rating plates, forklifts where the rating plates do not have ratings for the attachments used on them, forklifts where a clipboard had been installed over the rating plate (Simple solution to this problem - don't have the rating plate where a clipboard will be installed - in fact you should never have a rating plate on an engine cover because in sites with lots of forklifts you may have the same forklift with different ratings because of mast and/or attachment differences - if the engine covers on both are removed they may be reinstalled on the wrong forklift) et cetera.

And we have charts on some forklifts showing the loss in capacity with increased distance - but many forklift drivers cannot read graphs - if communication was to be maximised you'd have a table with distances and ratings for the forklift as fitted with its normal attachment. this would require load tables to be customised to each forklift.

And of course every site should have at least one forklift with a weighing scale (one of the larger ones) so that if there is a query it can be used to check the weight before it is moved off a truck.

So perhaps we need to put our efforts into this area rather than the nuance of a "rule of thumb"

Not wanting to start a war here.

As an OEM rep, just had to put that legal stuff in.

I agree, multiple load centers should be stated on Capacity charts when other than non standard forks are employed.

When the manufacture is notified, in written form, from a dealer of fork lengths that are unusual, meaning over 48", a capacity chart will be issued for that unit.

Never should an ooperator exceed the capacity or design of equipment.

Employ the proper equipment to perform the required task,

However my point was it should never be the position of an instructor to even hint that an operator can calculate or derated capacities other than stated on load charts, etc.

.

As instructors we have a responsibility to our students and employers to teach teh fundamentials and principals of safe operation.

Should have read 5000 pounds, not 500, but I figured you knew that already.

Should have read 5000 pounds, not 500, but I figured you knew that already.

Drlifttruck you have finaly put some common sense in the response.

Having said that Dan has a point and as trainers we realy need to unite so we can pressure the engineers to supply charts that can be referenced when that 60" pallet arrives at the dock.

Why Fight lets unite to make our industry safer!!!!

DrL

500lb forklift, 24" load center, 48" forks.

A 60" pallet arrives on a trailer.

Sorry Mr. Truck Driver, I cannot unload this pallet until I contact my manuafacturer to determine whether I can unload this pallet. Oh, I'm sorry. My manufacturer is in Korea and their office is closed. I'll ask my manager whether we can hire a mechanical engineer to determine whether I can unload your truck.

Yeah, right!!!!

Gentelmen,

Your math is flawed. 1 inch = 100lbs!!!!!

Contact the OEM to determine capacity of any given machine, equipted with any number of MFH available, with any given attachment.

ANSI B56.1 and OSHA 1910 29 CFR specifically require that capacity ratings be done by the manufacture or a competent Mechanical engineer.

As trainers it is our responsibility ,and required by ANSI, OSHA, ASME, ETC to train operators about the stability triangle and load capacities.

Not to calucalate load capacites beyond that which is stated on the capacity chart on the lift truck!

Think more speak less.

Regards

I wholeheartedly agree. Take the revised info (new lowered capacity) off the data plate, and then subtract the approx 1=100lbs.

Pretty obvious, tho'.

Just a bit of food for thought when considering applying (or not applying) the "rules of thumb" in quesstimating the capacity at an extended load centers, it seem every one starts with the base rated capacity of the machine (3000, 4000 (kg or lbs) etc.

In the US 3000 to 6500lb base capacity cushion, pneuamtic or electric forklifts are most commonly (80%+) equipped with a 4.8 meter (188") triple mast and side shifter and typically the net capacity of this machine is 400 - 600 lbs less than the base of the machine. This is the point from which any derating guesstimates needs to start.

Hi Dan

I understand where you're coming from though you do contradict yourself - you state "They will pick up any load and determine whether the back end starts to lift" inferring they have no idea of the weight of the load.

You go on to say "I am sure that many other safety instructors on this board will agree that many of their students are not even aware of the lifting capacities of the trucks they are operating" and then you promote the 1" = 100 lb rule. In the scenario above any rule is irrelevant.

In respect of charts I'm referring to charts prepared by management relating to the actual work forklifts do. If they load items to the centre of trucks the chart would say the maximum load for that movement was X lbs. If because of site layout and product type they have to place goods on the far side of a truck it would give a maximum of Y lbs and so on.

And management is obliged to put systems in place to ensure operators know the weight of loads they lift - otherwise in any fatality or serious injury situation they are wide open to being found negligent.

As trainers, we can take the time to digest all this info and evaluate each situation as it arises. As far as the average forklift operator is concerned, he/she will not take the time to establish the actual weight of the load vs. the capabilities of the forklift. Although they should, in real life, you, I, and a host of others know better. They will pick up any load and determine whether the back end starts to lift.
The 1"=100lbs is a simple, straight forward determination that most can understand so the operators can get a general idea as to whether they are within the lifting capacity of the forklift.
It is best to keep it as simple as possible because if the info goes over the heads of the operators, they will not listen, and worse, not practice what is taught.

And this contiues on to many other topics on this board where the letter of the law is quoted, and this is the way it is. If you understand where many of these operators are coming from, then you will soon learn to realize that they do not want to be in that classroom. They are there only because they HAVE to be there. And if an instructor is going to complicate the issue, the attendees will snooze. They want in/out in the shortest period of time (my students have to be patient) but if the topic is kept light and easy to understand, you may very well win them over. But you cannot complicate matters. We are not dealing with engineers, doctors or scientists. Most of my students have not attended college, and some did not even finish high school. And being too specific on many matters pertaining to forklifts, will definitely confuse them, resulting in the students ignoring what is being taught.

Yea, maybe manufacturers should place some type of chart explaining the capacities based on a variety of circumstances but I am sure that many other safety instructors on this board will agree that many of their students are not even aware of the lifting capacities of the trucks they are operating. Sad, but true. Do you think they even bother to read all the warning decals on the truck?

So, what is required is an easy formula for them to quickly determine the weight of the load they are lifting based on load centers greater than 24", and in most cases, the 1"=100 lbs is the simplest and easiest to remember. It may not always be accurate, but it does fall in close proximity to keep these operators from overloading the forklift, killing themselves, or someone else.

Hi all

Pity you can't put diagrams on here.

There are a limited numbers of concepts trainees need to understand:
Firstly there is the seesaw concept where the seesaw fulcrum is the drive axle of a counterbalance forklift - the relevant distance is the rated distance plus the extra distance to the drive axle - if you double that distance then you have to halve the load. For example if the forklift has a 24" load centre and a 16" distance from the fork face to the drive axle the relevant distance is 40'. Doubling that to 80" halves the rating with the load centre than being 80 - 16 = 64" from the fork face.

Secondly there is consideration of the forks themselves. I have nothing in writing from any fork manufacturer but have evidence to support that forks fitted to forklifts are often, or maybe rated higher than the forklift, and that forklifts rated individually at a certain rating may be downgraded as a pair presumable to allow for the fact that loads are supported offcentre be typically 30 mm on average. Hence a pair of forks individually rated to 4000 kg at 24" may be rated as a pair at 7500 kg at 24" and may be fitted to a forklift rated at 7000 kg at 24" (this is the actual situation in an investigation I am involved with into a case where two forks failed completely and concurrently at the heel after three years use). For forks the allowable load halves as the distance from the fork face doubles. So in the case above the load centre goes from 24" to 64" and hence the allowable load on the forks is reduced to 24/64 = 37.5% of its rating at 24" or a little more than a third of the forks original rating.

Thirdly there is consideration of any attachment being used, its rating with load distance, and the impact its weight and the degree to which it alters the actual load distance affects the forklifts rating. For example fitting a third party side shift adds weight and usually also means the forks are further from the drive axle so the two factors combine to reduce capacity.

Finally there is the serious matter of side stability. No forklift manufacturer I'm aware of provides customers with information as to whether side stability(rollover) or forward stability (tipover) is the controlling factor in rating the forklift. If it is side stability that is the issue then in rare situations all the calculations above may be irrelevant when the forklift is being operated at or close to maximum height.

So my advice is and always will be that the manufacturer should be invovled in determining the capacity of the forklift at different load centres and/or with different attachments. Every forklift should be fitted with a laminated chart that shows the actual capacity versus attachment and load centres for all situations likely to be encountered in the workplace, that all loads have mass estimates shown on them, and that at least one forklift (preferably the largest or one of the larger ones) is fitted with a load measuring device so that where the weight is not known that forklift can weigh the item to determine which forklifts can safely handle that item.

The 1"=100lbs works with most attachments and odd sized pallets and loads, but not with a carpet pin. The force of the load (carpet) is concentrated along a very narrow path, unlike a pallet, which has loads as wide as 48", sometimes wider. Therefore, the formula regarding carpet hauler forklifts is different. and as you can see, doesn't work, or apply in thia instance.

Dan

John Lambert.......You have considered the 78" carpet boom would probably have a 40" LC.

In the UK a normal carpet prong attachment is 4 metres in length.

Therefore 4 metres = 156" so the LC would be at 78"
Once again im having a problem in explaining to my trainees about using this 1"=100lbs reduction.

Truck rated capacity 2000lbs @ 24"
156" prong with a LC at 78"
LC increase of 54"
Reduce capacity by 5400lbs

Perhaps its just me, but you cant possibly use this rule of thumb calculation.

Guys first of let me wish you all a happy new year!

Ive read all your replies and the one thing thats very clear is theres so much confusion regarding this derating calculation.

I appreciate the fact that its a complicated issue when you consider all thats involved.

My reason for starting this topic was to find out how many different variations of the same subject are being used.

I suppose the forklift are no different here in Canada as they are in Australia, Same crap goes on here as well, except it is much colder, and snowier. How about I FEDEX you some?

Actually, I may have some training to do in the next couple of weeks in Iqualuit, Nunavat (?), in the Candian Arctic, about a 3.5 hour flight north of Ottawa. As in the desert, this land is beyond the tree line. Some of these guys are probably Eskimos. But who cares...it is the law there as well, and although I hate the frigid temps, and even shorter days, it shall be an experience that one should not forget.

That's fine Dan

Keep up your passion.

Aussies are a lot like Canadians - both live in big countries with not much population - your country has a very cold "desert" area; and ours has a very hot desert area.

My biggest concerns are that the operators I retrain a) don't know the capacity of their forklift if you ask them b) often have clipboards inslalled over the load plate and/or ilegible load plates and/or load plates that do not show the capacity of the forklift with its attachments, and c) they don't know the weight of what they are lifting because it's not marked with a weight in any way.

Makes one beleive that most training is totally ineffective when they don't follow the most basic rule to check the capacity of the forklift and check the weight of the load before you lift it