Understand!

However, are there any stipulations in the laws that state compliance based upon the size of the company?

If there are none, then everyone must comply, big, medium, or small!

One way to overcome business size is to serve citations at fees that are relevant to the size of the company.

At the end of the day, all business must comply with the law. There is no room for complacency, procrastination, avoidance, or excuse.

dan, i take it you are in the safety training feild so i think (if in fact you are) that your view of this issue may be a little biased. there are laws in place to deal with these issues and beyond that there civil liabilities to contend with. adding government to the equation will do little more than make it more expensive and possibly because of that less palletable to very small operations which are the target of this conversation. personal responsibility has to be in this discussion somewhere.
please dont take offense to this as i am just offering a different view, not trying to change yours.

I'll say it again...
We have laws. We have laws regarding automobile drivers licenses and tags and stickers (by state/province). The vast majority of drivers renew their tags, licenses and stickers when required by law!

We do so because its the law, there is a sense of urgency to conform with the law, and when our birthday arrives, we do not procrastinate. It doesn't matter whether our birthdays fall during the summer. It doesn't matter if our birthdays fall around Christmas/New Years. We make the attempt to ensure that we as LAW ABIDING citizens, we comply with the laws that are in place!

Here in Ontario, at least, as other parts of Canada and the US, it IS the LAW to have your staff trained! Based on my experiences, there are companies who just don't do it! Or, they may procrastinate! Or they will have a gazillion excuses as to why not now!

We can't train now, its summer! We can't train now, its close to Christmas! We can't train now, we are busy! We can't train our staff now because business is slow!

Every frickin excuse under the sun as to why they can't. And there is no need to worry since there is no sense of urgency to get it done! Where are the laws that I have paid thru my taxes, to be drawn up and printed, now?

If the government sets forth LAWS, then enforce them, or at least make an attempt to enforce them! Don't take on the attitude that if something happens, we will charge the company then. That is BS.

If the government does not know where all the forklifts are, then have them registered as they do with automobiles. If that is not worthy, well unemployment is high, so get a slew of unemployed at minimum wage to walk around the industrial parks and take notes as to where the lift trucks are located. One person can call on at least 80 businesses a day, so it won't take all that long.

Now that you have a listing, let the officers go out and enforce the laws that their bosses created, using my money and yours!

To me health and safety in mostly the responsibility of the company and of each person. The governments will never have enough resources or money to ensure safety in millions of companies and with hundreds of millions in the workplaces. The governments enforcements really are only reactive and not proactive, they are meant to deal with the worst case situations, but typically only after the fact. It is up to every member of management and every single worker to look out for themselves and others, that is the only thing that really works in my opinion.

I find it very strange that these businesses have the ability to pay the out tens of thousands of dollars in fines when found guilty, but somehow find it very difficult to spend an extra couple of bucks to have the training done properly in the first place.

I agree but there may be consequences later on down the track. I have just read a good article by Danny Maron re: Bordering on bribery. (forkaction.com industry news) trainers that take a reduced fee for reducing the training, cutting corners and issuing licences/certificates can be classed as taking a BRIBE and the managers that pay out the backhander?? Can be liable if something goes wrong.

This is where the managers come into play Do managers look for the most expensive or the cheapest? CHEAPEST Do managers ask what type of training will the trainees receive? NEVER!
They should insist on a structured training plan and ensure the trainer is training the trainees the correct way. THEY SHOULD, BUT DON'T!
The managers should know what they are getting for their money. You think?
The managers should CARE what they are getting for their money. JUST GIVE EM THEIR PAPERS AND ALL IS GOOD!
But do they???? NO!

Hi,

It's mostly the same here in Queensland; I've heard some horrendous stories of how some operators got their licences. From 4 hours to 8 hours for operators that have never driven a forklift. As for the price, there are advertisements on the paper ranging from A30 to A$800.
So which price is right?
This is where the managers come into play Do managers look for the most expensive or the cheapest? Do managers ask what type of training will the trainees receive?
They should insist on a structured training plan and ensure the trainer is training the trainees the correct way.
The managers should know what they are getting for their money.
The managers should CARE what they are getting for their money.
But do they????

Better believe it Max. The cheapest, the shortest amount of time, the less taxing (difficulty) to their staff, the more they will hire you. Goes against the grain for me although my rates are actually very competitive.

I had written an article in the Safety 1st column some time ago "How Much is that Doggy in the Window" re the prime interest by employers regarding safety, and a second article, how long.

How much and how long seems to be the 2 points that determine which company uses whom for training.

I wonder whether they purchase their automobiles, stereos, computers and clothes that way...how much (the cheapest naturally) and how long (the shortest duration naturally)?

Its very interesting reading these posts. The remarks from Dan is exactly what we get here in England. The enforcement in the UK is no better than you guys get in the U.S & Canada.
What worries me is when the Instructors stop caring. I could name several Instructors in my area who's heads have dropped and now go out training solely for the days pay. I train new and existing instructors and am amazed at the poor standard of instruction here mainly because the instructors dont care any more. Do you guys find that if you stand firm against a poor system you find yourself standing alone ? The employers can easily find someone else taking half the time for half the cost. Do the awarding bodies in the UK care ? NO... Does the HSE in the UK care? NO.... So I guess its upto us, the few who do still care

All said and done, it boils down to the employer and their management. They are the only one directly on hand, instructing and supervising the operators. Yes, loss of life is sad and I truly feel for the family, but any finger pointing should be aimed at his direct supervisor and employer.

As a member of management when an accident occured no matter how major or minor, I always looked for what I could do better. For a very selfish reason, I never wanted to be the person that has to call a wife and give them the news.

i want to say i am sorry for my venemous reply to the horrible accident that killed that young man. i am a little ashamed of letting my political views cloud my view of this unimagineable tragedy. i cant even consider the suffering of a parent loosing a child.

i shouldn't have opened my mouth on this subject, my political views are thick and fixed but it seems to me that enforcing existing laws and exercising some personal responsibility are the logical answers to this problem. if you "violate" enforce the law and if you dont know how to drive it stay the **** off. personal responsibility is when you dont ask the government to be your mother. socialism doesn't need much of an invitation and once its in it takes a lot of dead 18 year olds to get rid of

Noted.

What do we do with those companies who procrastinate the safety training laws put forth by our governments? Or refresher training? Both laws yet I can name you lots who either do not have their staff trained, refresher trained, or delay the training altogether. They are breaking the labour laws, and with no one enforcing them, then whats the hurry to get it done?

Drive without the latest sticker on your license plate, the cops will nail you down from a mile away! Don't renew your drivers license, they'll come a hollering at you with ticket book at hand.

Humans, western society, will take advantage of the non actions of government not enforcing the laws. And if they can get away with it, they will. Most people are literally scared not to renew their licenses, therefore, they'll do it, and the bureaus are jammed pack every woken moment. People are literally scared to drive with invalid plates and drivers licenses, and that is why they renew.

I have yet to come across a business that is literally scared when it comes to planning out training, or refresher training.

And every excuse why not to do it is presented. This one can't make it, or inventory these weeks, or busy time for us, or so and so is on holidays. You name it, they will find the excuse. When it comes to drivers licenses and plates, I'd love to hear them say things like..I've got a wedding to go to, I will be on holidays, I am too busy, My dog is sick.

No sir, they find the time to get er dun. Unlike training, because there is no strict enforcement.

If that was the case, my phone would be ringing a hundred times a day!

we need to prosecute vigorously to the full extent of EXISTING laws. no amount of inspections are as scary to an employer as jail time or losing a civil case. governments do nothing effectively other than vacuum money out of the pockets of those who work hardest. should we make tickets cost $1000.00 or put a cop every 20 feet just because 1 guy got away. or remove all firearms from all citizens when one accident occurs? we have enough government and every time we let them have access to a little more of our life they find a way to bill us for it.

I agree that governments don't do anything well except collect every last cent we have, and spend it foolishly.

On another note, they do some enforcement in other areas that they do not enforce in our field.

They have roadblocks set up for seat belt use.
They have roadblocks set up for alcohol use.
They park off to the side in forests and other hiding spots with radar to track down speedsters
They will pull you over if they notice your license tag is not current
And everything else I can't think of at this time.

So what do the labour departments do in order to crack down on illegal activities in the workplace?

You may not need a nanny, but there does not seem as sense of urgency for business to follow the laws put forth. There are laws, but what is being done to enforce them?

the loss of a life at any age is horribly tragic and i cant imagine the pain the family is suffering.
that being said i think asking for more government intrusion or regulation is a mistake (a big one). governments cant do anything well and rules and laws are already exist to cover this subject. be **** careful what you ask for. i dont need a nanny and those who do should rent their own.

The issue is twofold...

1 lack of government intervention, although they are the ones who write and enforce the laws
2. Lack of sense of urgency on behalf of the companies to do the training, and especially, enforce the training

Combine the two, and you get incidents and deaths.

Good morning Dan,
I do agree that there should be more facility inspections to check for proper training, but usually the only time we see these inspectors are when there is an accident of this type or if a disgruntled employee files a complaint (safety) to OSHA.
When I was in the military we knew we had inspections from higher headquarters very 12 - 18 months and it was not good for any one to fail these and they looked for everything from basic training techniques to whether an individual and unit actually knew what they were doing.
We are very fortunate that we have a CEO that is very safety conscious and we have programs in place that sends out reports once a month that shows what employee training that has been conducted and what employee training re-evaluations are due with in the next six months.
As a trainer I would love to see a 0 accident/incident rate, but as with children, you can raise them the best you can, give them the right direction, but ultimately it is in their hands to take that life time of learning and properly use it. As the old adage is. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make them drink".
Again it is a sad day when a death occurs within our environment, or anywhere, especially one that could have been prevented.

The government has as much knowledge of the whereabouts of forklifts, as I do. If they knew where they are all situated, and had the government inspectors visit these businesses, and follow-up whether training has been done or not, maybe, just maybe this death wouldn't of occurred.

Yes, the company must have their staff trained but you know as well as I, that they procrastinate, put it on the backburner or forget about it. Why, because there is no fear driven into the companies to make this a priority. There are fears of getting into an automobile accident, and fears of not renewing our license plates, but there is no fear of not getting, or delaying, forklift safety training!