Hi Karait,

you are right, the cost is always a very important factor in all the countries, but in some more and in some less.
If you have a stable economy as is Germany, you invest in machinery that can last more, also if they cost more.
In economies like the one of east Europe the instability of the market is making you thinking more of getting something cheap, that will not influence too much your cash flow, especially if you have an high exposure with banks... I can't know well as you the Polish situation, but I also come from east Europe (not Poland) and I know how it is.

You are right, the persons in this business are a closed circle, but here in Germany the circle of Cascade has twisted for my point of view to much: in the last 5-6 years they have changed 3 times locations, and all the time the contact persons in the office has changed.
At the beginning they were having a local stock of equipment (also used), a reparation center and more technicians, but in the last years they have reduced this services a lot.
From my personal taste, when I arrive at a customer and I find a combination Linde truck - Kaup attachment, I'm very happy: I know that I can easily find assistance if I need something.
In Cascade was also like this some years ago, but now not anymore.

It is a pity: I was in USA in holiday, and there more than the 50% of the attachments are Cascade, and from everybody I was having the feedback that Cascade attachemnts are absolutely the number 1 (also if a was a tourist I was not able to separate from my work).
OK, in Germany as I said a lot of persons are buying products "Made in Germany", as if somebody wants a sport car is getting a Porsche or a BMW M3, not a Corvette or Chevrolet Camaro, but it's really a shame to see how Cascade is developing the business in Germany compared to its image in the rest of the world: I don't understand their strategy, and now, with the acquisition from Toyota, I don't expect anything better.
That is my thought, lets see what it will be...

Hello Marko R,

You are definitely right concerning the quality of Kaup product, specially concerning the sideshifters, double and triple pallet handlers etc.

I've been working for Linde in Poland for 14 years on management level, been in the factory 70-80 times. Till today I am befriended with several people up there. The information about high costs factor related to location goes directly from them.

Bolzoni in Poland (practically it's Auramo + Bolzoni) has been started and is led succesfully till today by one of the former Linde salesman.
Cascade in Poland is led by another former Linde salesman.
When they were with Linde I trained them on aftersales issues.
I know them both very well and respect them both and do not favorize any of them.
The same applies to people from Meyer, Durwen, Kaup, Atib etc.
This is a closed circle of people.

You are right, Cascade had some personal issues (in Poland too, that's why one of my friends is leading them now) after several years of stable team work.

From my local experience I cannot confirm, that Kaup, Cascade or Auramo offer definitely better service than other.
Service network is generally outsourced (my company supports some of the companies) availability of product and parts are comparable. What distinguishes the companies are the prices.

Yes, you are right about strong price orientation in Poland, but tell me where is the country, that nobody cares about the prices.
I'll go there immediately and start the bussines there ;-)

You are surely aware, that direct sales of attachments through the subsidiaries is rather low. Main volume comes on the market with the trucks. And it's up to the truck companies, which attachment they sell with their product.
Linde sold Kaup, than Bolzoni, than Kaup again, Still, Jungheinrich etc are mostly equipped with Cascade.

All the main brands have the similar respect here, but everybody, specially now, is counting money. And when on spare parts area, the pricing policy is similar, the prices of the new attachment differ strongly.
And from the Big 4 (Kaup, Cascade, Meyer, Auramo), Kaup has the most expensive product on the market concerning the standard attachments.

For Karait,

Kaup is in Aschaffenburg, so in Bayern, correct, but not in Munich: the cost of work there is not different than in any other part of West Germany.
In any case, in Germany more than the price is the quality one of the most important factor for anything related to the machine industry, and from my point of view the quality of Kaup is at the moment one of the best, together with the customer service.
If you have ever dealed with the Kaup service in Germany you will know how efficient it is, on the contrary Cascade doesn't have such an extensive customer service: the engineers on the road are much less compared to the competitors.

I'm not an expert for the Polish market, but for the few contacts that I had, I have noticed a strong attention to the price (clearly the economy is not running as the one in Germany), but also to the service.
You are right on Cascade "the entire documentation (catalogues etc) you can download from their webpage", but they don't have a local technical support in Poland, while Bolzoni, for example, is developing a big network in Poland, you just have to search on Forkliftaction the article of Thursday, 18 Aug 2011 "Bolzoni Auramo Polska moves"
...Today, over 10 people work at the new 600 sqm (6,458 sqft.) Lublin office. The new building houses the marketing, sales, financing, after-sales and service departments. Additional space at the facility will be used to stock new and used attachments....

Another problem that I see for Cascade, is that they have a lot of changing in contact persons. In some areas of Germany there are since several years always the same salesmen, but in some other areas the persons change too often: in Germany, in this field, the persons like to have always the same contact and some stability. You can like it or not, but this is the German Industrial colture and mentality.

You are absolutely right Karait- aftermarket is an alternative. The challenge is that the parts associated with the ECS system are all dealer item only as far as I know. My aftermarket supplier who is a distributor for TVH can't look up parts for the ECS system & my local dealer won't either. The dealer has to come out & diagnose before they'll look up a part & then they'll sell to me-but they might as well install whatever is needed because they're already there.

I no longer can reccomend Toyota lifts to my customer base who want a new truck. Trapping customers into exorbant pricing & service tractics isn't a good long term business model- especially with how competitive the forklift market is.

Toyota WAS the king of the hill but their foothold is starting to crumble.

Edward, even if you are right (probably you are), there's always the alternative for the older trucks owners.
You can purchase "non original" Toyota parts for 10 - 30% of their official catalogue price.

I just checked the prices of some parts specified by Duodeluxe.
The wheel cylinder for Toyota 6, 4 tonner you may buy in TVH for 30-35 Euro (Toyota catalogue - about 300 Euro)
Brake booster - 230-250 Euro, Toyota price: ~ 1100 Euro.

I know that the genuine parts are usually better (not always), but for older trucks owners this is a reasonable alternative

I guess that is one way to get people to trade in their old trucks, make the parts price more than the difference bet\ween a new truck and getting the old one repaired.

And don't forget the 7series wiring harness for the ecs equipped 4y engine coming in at ONLY $5.500.

And people think that Linde has high parts pricing?
Wow, Toyota is knock your socks off! This is an example of pricing on a 6 series, 9000# pneumatic.
Wheel cylinder $514.00
Brake booster (Master cylinder) $1560.00
Lift cylinder packing kit $323.00
Hood shock $178.00
Thermostat $46.00
Carriage roller $248.00
And the winner is the transmission dip stick priced at a mere $145.00!

Its a shame BT & Toyota got together, BT with Raymond & Cesab make some fantastic products, then the Toyota rot set in.

The thing that sell's Toyota counter balances to customers is the SAS system, the fact the machines themselves are nasty to work on passes them by.

People with there head screwed on in Europe know Linde make the best counter balance machines, someone at Linde has thought " hang on, somebody is going to have to service / repair this machine in the future " so they have designed the machine with a eye for easy maintenance.
Whoever does the design at Toyota just shoved everything in the chassis wherever it would fit & jammed the covers shut.

I also know several customers that wont even test drive a Toyota because of the lack of hydrostatic transmission.

I ask a question to ponder a thought. Why would Toyota purchase a company for several percentage points above market value? The answer may be very simple. Customer base is probably one of the biggest reasons. Many of us have used Cascade in the past. All of the information you have to give Cascade to provide the right attachment is kept as part of their engineering records. This has created one of the largest customer data bases in one place. Toyota being the marketing monster that they are has found value in this information. I believe they have purchased the fastest path right to your customer's door. Forkdog you are correct about Raymond. George Raymond said that he would never sell to Toyota! He didn't Ross Calhoun did through B.T. The consolidation of Toyota and Raymond dealers is on its way. All of the innovation you speak of at Raymond is still there; you will have to look at Toyota equipment for it to appear. Remember the days when a Toyota forklift was the sorriest piece of equipment you ever saw that washed up on American shores?

why not try some new options? a compsite of the capacity,price,appearance etc,Fujian Longji is definitely on your consideration!

I like Kaup either, but I wouldn't be so optimistic.
Kaup is one of the most expensive producers in Europe (at least on polish market). Cascade is definitely cheaper.

I've been in Kaup factory two or three times and I liked, what I've seen. But Kaup factory is in Aschaffenburg, one of the most expensive towns in Germany (at least in Bayern). It defines the costs and prices.
Additionally, Kaup factory is just a throw of cake from the the main Linde site in Nilkheim and everybody in the bussiness knows, there are strong relations between those two.

In Poland Cascade has equally professional support, and the entire documentation (catalogues etc) you can download from their webpage.

I think, that today and in the forthcoming years the price policy may decide about the success or the problems. And Kaup is pretty rigid on this area.

I always try & go for Kaup, the ones I've come across over the years have been built like a brick outhouse, the service & parts back up is also superb.
Needed a parts drawing last year, Kaup service emailed it to me within the hour.

Also look after some Bolzoni attachments, there ok but I prefer the Kaup.

From my point of view, this is a very smart action that will bring a lot for Toyota and Cascade on the US and Far East market.

For European in general, and in particular for German market, this will certainly reduce the market share of Cascade.
Kaup, Stabau, Durwen, Meyer and also the Italian Bolzoni are already licking their fingers for the extra business that they will get without doing nothing.

Toyota is really marketwise company and they are aware of the negative branch reception of this purchase.
They will probably use some marketing tools (like pricing, warranty policy, etc.) to keep the attachment markeshare.

We must be aware, that such ventures already happened on the market.
Linde utilized Clark hydrokinetic transmissions for their heavy trucks in 90-s.
Combilift uses Linde hydrostatic transmission, etc.
Not to mention the engine manufacturers like Mitsubishi or Hyunday supplying the stuff to their competitors.
From the other hand there is Juli factory in Czech owned by Jungheinrich and Linde and manufacturing the electric motors for both + Still + who know else.

We have the Europe or US centric view on Toyota. The company is winning on our markets with the european or american brands and we don't like it.
But I think, even if it takes some time (rather short, IMHO), everybody gets used to the new Cascade/Toyota, and they will maintain, or even raise their market position.

NOTE - I don't work for Toyota. Personally and profesionally I prefer Linde.

Yeah sharing suppliers/tech has made so much of a difference to sales.....or not.
Jungheinrich sales ditched when MCFE supplied engines and transmissions? Nope.
MCFE sold a **** of a lot of the EFG 4-5 ton models, more than Jungheineich were selling at one point, obviously very bad for sales!?
MHI (MCF) joint venture with Nissan on IC 1-3.5 ton in 2004 was terrible for sales on both sides? Nope.
Rocla sales have always been less to their own direct dealers/customers than those sold through MCF....no issue there.
And the joint venture of MCF made little difference to sales of Cat branded trucks, which have always outsold Mit versions.
Cat trucks post-1992 produced by everyone other than Cat I.e eagle picher, royal tractor, daewoo, kalmar.....!
Jungheineich product sales through MCFA doesn't seem to be a problem.

As pointed out by others this is not a new situation and will have little change and I very much anyone will lose here, just like in all of the previous occurrences.

I recently attended an open day at one of the major brands in the UK market and mentioned this during a discussion with one of their local sales people.
The comment was made ' we wont be using Cascade now they are part of Toyota' - I'm not sure if this is a group decission or a local one? - but it reflects the kind of knee-jerk reaction which can be effected low down in an organisation without the knowledge of the management and probably to the detriment of their own customers by restricting market offerings.
Did they stop using Pyroban when they were acquired by CAT ?..
Decissions not to use a supplier as they are a direct competitor are in most cases logical and sound - but do we really think that Toyota will have any detrimental impact on Cascade brand, products or service? - if anything if Toyota prescribe the fitment of Cascade products on their own trucks, as their own brand , they will increase volumes, and can decrease prices and pass this benefit to all.

So - should you buy, or should you not?... depends
but this should be a concious, strategic, decission and not knee-jerk reaction. Think many companies probably need to take a view and communicate this internally so everyone is clear

As that Sonny & Cher song goes "The Beat Goes On".

Stay tuned folks, don't be surprised if Toyota's next acquisition is TVH / SMH. They have a huge amount of cash sitting around and they are looking to take control of the aftermarket parts business.

I totally agree with your entire post with one minor exception that happened many moons ago relative to product quality/design - it was called "The Cascade Silver Anniversary Line". This is a page Robert Warren & Co. would like to forget and one that helped stimulate the growth of Long Reach for a period of time.