Hear that, in Atlanta there is a a similar chain called "Nacho-Mamas".

Know GR well my roommate at Western was from Rockford and I was associated with Van's Industrial in my A-C days, then later with Komatsu/Kalmar. Knew Jack & Bob Vandersloot well & their Dad, Pete.

Johnr,

I was raised in Mt Clemens and got my start in forklifts at BELL - back then we were a WHITE Dealer when I started out. I worked for Bell forklift for about 10 yrs then moved on to Yale Dealership in Livonia,MI - I'm now in Grand Rapids - Opposite side of Detroit.

So you may had heard about the restaurant that the old Mayor Young of Detroit was supposed to open ? "Nacho-Daddy"

jd n,
What part of the state that looks like the back of your left hand or the front part of your right hand are you from? I grew up in south of Deeetroit (Ecorse/Taylor) went to WMU thru '67 & didn't meet Tim Allen (Tool Time).
Those folks that promoted opportunity charging, mainly GNB brand, gave up that ghost about 6-7 years ago. They found that battery life got a lot shorter and silently stopped promoting the "opportunity" charge benefit. Back to the basics on industrial batteries - a new battery is born with "X" number of charge cycles (commonly folks - the battery experts - will say 1400 to 1600.
Then there is the fast charger folks that claim the can recharge a battery faster & cooler but when asked what kind of battery life can you expect you get total silence or the blank stare of a deer in headlights or both.

LOL - funny how one post can get into related topics huh ?

I agree on both topics.
The Federal Government trying to change a environmental problem with taxation is the same bandit with a different mask.

I also agree that the electric lift trucks have proven to be a good value in the overall cost of ownership. I've been involved in several conversions in places where it was like pulling teeth to get the old drivers to accept the electric lift trucks. Eventually it works out in most cases.

Now I saw the beginnings of another topic- batteries - that's another can of worms with opportunity batteries and chargers, Gel verses lead acid -etc.

All I want to point out there - I've had to manage maintenance contracts. I had some deals where we started a fleet on a 4 yr contract - re-use old batteries into new 4 yr contract on the new fleet and saw the repair costs escalate as the batteries deteriorated.

I wouldn't recommend getting into a binding contract lease with maintenance using any batteries beyond 4 - 5 yrs old.

But this thread is about Cap and Tax. The Federal Governments policy taken right out of the ole Mafia hand book.

One factor that people often forget when it comes to electric is that the economic life is longer than LPG powered equipment (less moving parts). If we say the economic life of LPG is 5 years or 12K hours, then a comparable electric doing th same jobs can be expected to be 7 years or 14K hrs. with proper TLC on the truck, battery & charger. A charger does not necessarily need to be replaced when the lift truck & battery is, but most the customers are not aware of this. The economics are there - just look at the difference in the customer cost of a monthly PM for electric vs LPG.
Two issues that get in the way are:
1. Financial - for tax purposes, the US the federal government, for the most part allows, a 5 year period for depreciation expense for all lift trucks. Financial types like that depreciation expense = less annual tax liability. There have been exceptions-I new a former major steel company in Gary, Indiana that had to depreciate lift over 20 years (lift trucks got thrown into the depreciation schedule as all steel making capital equipment expenditures.. The selling/servicing dealer enjoyed the complete rebuilds from the ground up every 3 years.
2. Maintenance/Procedures - End users are the biggest abusers of following proper charging methods, procedures & maintenance of the batteries. Here is where they can destroy a battery are greatly shorten the life. Through my experiences, it is my opinion the root of this is the installing dealer does not provide training to the proper personnel (operators &/or maintenance & supervision at time of delivery and often the end user does not a have a single assigned person of responsibility for this - this brings on the finger point game. Shame on the dealership, sales person, product support folks, etc.
A simple test is to ask the people who are supposed to be responsible for lift truck/battery care what the "Equalize" button on the charger does & when should it be used - you'll get the blank look of a deer staring into the headlight - 90% of the time. This goes for larger fleet users or the "Mom & Pop" operations and every body in between.

I am an electric truck fan and feel that in the end they will be the most popular and correct choice for most jobs. Batteries are not very environmentally friendly and any improvement on lead acid is very expensive. The fact is that most customers at the moment are looking to change to LPG from either diesel or electric because of the figures available at the moment and the forecasts for costs for the next 5 years. This is a can of worms and ultimately the winner will be the power source any customer chooses based on the information available (and any government pressure applied to favor one ahead of another).

Once again it is proven that everyone has a navel & an opinion.

The percentages I stated are documented world wide usages - so it seems folks are already capitalizing the various sources & no doubt making big bucks.

My point is electricity is not only produced by carbon producing sources other sources like hydro, nuclear power has been used to generate electricity for many decades. So to say that LPG is cleaner because the electricity to charge battery powered units produces carbon emissions is not 100% true, maybe only 41% true.

Andy, in my humble opinion I dont believe alternate pwr (ie solar, wind, rotting vegetation, ect) is a constant reliable source we can utilize. If it were so, business entrepenures would attemp to make the sell and cash in. Additionally, there is so much political horse **** about wind mills killing birds, cow farts and burning garbage heating the atmosphere, no nuke is good nukes, where does it end.

I would love to see cheap renewable reliable source of fuel. But I just believe this whole agenda has turned into a political preching stump designed to dismantle a democratic free socity , and to empower those on the receiving end of gov't. The dismantling of the system is covered up through legislation, not through democratic prosesses.
Let the free market and democracy determine direction, w/ alittle gov't input.

When money can be made, there is always someone who will find a way to do it cheaper, better, quicker, and cleaner. Please take no offense in any of my oppinions, but democracy has been a proven method.

The Spartan Warrior

andy pandy,
How much carbon is produced from electric power companies that use these sources to generate electricity:
1. Hydro Power
2. Solar
3. Wind
4. Bio Fuels - veg oils & the like
5. And other renewable sources - bio mass (rotting vegetation), geo thermal (steam from the earth), and ocean waves ?

Currently worldwide production of electricity via all renewable sources is 18% & growing.

There are countries that get 86% of their electricity from renewables - e.g. Brazil & several European countries get way over 1/2.
Add to that list nuclear power generation which is about 16%.

Fossil fuels (primarily carbon producing coal) provide 41% of the worldwide electricity - whoops less that 1/2 & it is getting smaller (except in China).

Another 25% comes from some other sources. Had no time to research, as I MUST start working on the list that SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED has delivered to me in a firm tone.

From your lips to GOD'S ears

I agree w/ what you proport, but it still doesn't change or rectify the issue. If cap and trade manifests its self, industry will have to bend and adhere to this librel agend. It doesn't make any sense to ignore and bury your head.

Personally, ( I would assume similar to most hard working business owers), I get very fustrated when when forced to celerbrate "Obama month" 4 times a year. This when, the Federal gov't extorts large sums of cash in the name "WE KNOW WHATS BETTER FOR YOU AND WE'RE GOING TO DO IT".
Isn't it what the Bostonians were angry w/ when we kicked British a#%.

But again, ignoring the issue isn't going to make bleeding hearts go away.

The Spartan Warrior

Cap and trade is a taxation system that portends to force companies to reduce their energy consumption via threat of monetary penalty. It is a money grab for governments and is predicated on the absolutely false idea that global warming is man made and can somehow be influenced by taxation. Anyone that actually believes that any benefit can come from this is a communist at heart and believes that government is the answer to everything. If this offends anyone tough s#@!

Thank you for your puts

The Spartan Warrior

It is generally accepted the LPG machine have a smaller carbon footprint than Electric ones once you consider all the carbon released during the production of the electricity.

Until it actually passes into law - who knows exactly how it would work.
I wouldn't use it as a selling tool, but if the customer is asking to get quoted on the swap. I wouldn't try to dismiss it.

To me -this will be a Federal managed program. Electricity running into a building can easily be monitored by the meter.

I don't see any easy way to control the use of propane- it's not like it's plumbed into each company. All a person would have to do is have multiple venders.

But I wouldn't want to guess on anything until the law is actually put into effect.
I think your customer is just trying to use common sense.