Discussion:
Why hydrogen Fuel cell forklifts will not work

Hydrogen is said to be the clean fuel of the future, but can hydrogen really work as a fuel. The simple and easy answer to this question is NO. Hydrogen will never work as a cost effective fuel in any industry be it transportation Industry or Port and terminals hydrogen will be just to expensive when compared to other alternatives.


First there are now two ways hydrogen is being promoted as the saver fuel of the World. Fuel cell or IC engine ,which power source is used Hydrogen has still the same old problem You have to pressurise it to 350 bar and it has to fit in high pressure tanks both on the machine and when stored at a facility. The cost of this is extremely expensive Toyota spent over A$ 7 million for a refuelling station that can produce only 80kg of hydrogen per day.

Heli report their new hydrogen 4 - 5 ton forklift will have a range of 4 hours this is similar to an all electric truck , one reason for this might be a small hydrogen storage tank due to the high cost of the tanks themselves a 5kg Hydrogen tank would cost over $5,000. JCB State that hydrogen fuel cells need de ionised coolant that cost £20 per litre. and hydrogen its self would cost around $9.5 per kg. So for both to run and to service hydrogen fuel cells will be just to expensive for any company to use.

Hydrogen IC engines also have some major issues the first one is the low compression ratio due to the pre ignition of the hydrogen. The result of this is an engine that give much lower power compared to a conventional diesel engine. The JCB Hydrogen engine gives around 80KW when the same JCB Diesel engine gives 120KW. New Hydrogen IC engine equipment will also have the major issue of the high pressure tanks and storage.

Finally there is the problem of hydrogen supply. All the hydrogen projects around the world are to store and transport this hydrogen as ammonia meaning it has to be cracked back into hydrogen when it gets to site, a very expensive process. Here's what Aramco have to say on how they will store and transport their hydrogen

Hydrogen is a very light molecule. It can be liquified, but that requires keeping it at a temperature of -254°C, which makes it very difficult and expensive to transport - particularly over long distances. The solution lay in converting the hydrogen into a chemical compound which is already widely traded around the world: ammonia. 

Compared to hydrogen, liquified ammonia is far more convenient, practical and cost-effective to transport, in terms of both the required temperature and pressure conditions. 

Once the blue ammonia reaches its destination, it can be converted back into blue hydrogen,
  • Posted 22 Nov 2021 05:46
  • Discussion started by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Showing items 1 - 15 of 22 results.
Yes and Know. Different power sources have their advantages and disadvantages in their applications. Can you tell me where i can service your ammonia fueled machine here in the dallas ,tx. IE fueling services? How about a company name and contact info.
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 21:42
  • Reply by Dexter1212
  • Texas, United States
Looks like Hyundai and Doosan believe in the hydrogen engine as a future power source having read this weeks news stories.

So I guess the answer to the "simple question" is YES!
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 19:51
  • Reply by Tat2dPete
  • Strathclyde, United Kingdom
Pete
And you have stated all too may times that your ammonia eater, zero emission unit is coming too - your words. So why would any believe any thing you say/publish. Go back and read for yourself how many times you have stated this. Credibility is every thing. So far you have none just like your "claimed" zero emission unit - is nothing more than your fantasy in my (many others) book.
Good Night John Boy ( re: The Waltons)
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 19:35
  • Modified 2 Dec 2021 19:36 by poster
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
"Have An Exceptional Day!"
I'm looking to make this simple

Do people believe hydrogen has a future as a fuel

Just answer


Yes


No
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 17:16
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Just to point out the Only thing I have said about both linde and KION is this on Linde, I said way before it happened that they were going to shut Myther Tydfil which they did and people who worked deserved to know that it was shutting. Second On KION I said Weichai Power were to become there biggest shareholder that KION said was wrong only to say It was right the week after I said it. Both these were correct , Now Hyster is my opinion based on what I know and understand. Hyster used shareholder cash to purchase Maximal for over $100 Million a company at most worth $30 Million, they have also invested over $200 million on hydrogen fuel cells that don't really have any future. So you are looking a quite a large write-down on Hyster coming.


Now sorry if people on here don't like to know but this is what is coming.
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 09:45
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
in the US Hyster is not the big dog they once were- many Yale dealers have bought out or merged with or have taken over Hyster dealerships, e.g. Barlow World who bought out Wren Brothers once a top level Hyster dealer in their day in the US was taken over by Briggs Equipment.
Not a Hyster or Yale or Toyota or Linde fan - - just retired, hung up my spurs in Oct. of 2007. was well known in the US as a person of integrity and respected for 41 years - from coast to coast - north to south plus all of Mexico and Japan. (Mitsubishi and Komatsu).
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 09:43
  • Modified 2 Dec 2021 09:53 by poster
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
"Have An Exceptional Day!"
Dave I'm not fan of Hsyter and feel they lost their way a good few years ago but as you did with Linde a few years ago you do seem to have hyster in your sights now.
The best way to get people onside Dave is to do what you keep saying your going to do (Q2 2019 then Q3 2020) and that's show your wonder truck where is it Dave we're all still waiting
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 06:32
  • Reply by lifter01
  • West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Like I said nice to see the Hyster fan club in full swing. So I take it you believe in the future of hydrogen fuel cells
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 06:26
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Ask Hyster - you seem to have the inside track on their R & D funding & expenditures. Get the info you are seeking from your insider sources. Most information you get through the grapevine is most usually way off base. Get it from the horses mouth.
Would think your investors into ammonia eating/modular units would also want to see results and some ROI soon too. So far as I can tell based on your posting on FAC - there has been zero revenue - just all costs and words
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 06:14
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
"Have An Exceptional Day!"
Ok Where is it? your super truck that is. All of the corporations you have listed have the expertise , money to invest and all have their own way of doing things. Should you ever show up with your marvel of modern day tech i am sure there is going to be a path beaten to your that would make most of our minds spin. Seems you get all of your information from the internet. Reminds me of one of Will Rodgers famous quotes" All i know is what I read in the papers"
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 05:19
  • Reply by Dexter1212
  • Texas, United States
Now I know before I even put what I'm going to say the Hyster fan club on here that always seem to say im just knocking Hyster are going to be up in arms. But I have my opinion on Hyster and just wondered if people agree or disagree.


Hyster have gone and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on Hydrogen fuel cells believing that they will be the future not just in materials handling but in other areas as well. Now companies Like KION have taken a slightly different approach they have partnered up with other companies Like Ballard who have developed the fuel cell, to me this is a lot less of a risk as they have not had to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars on this. Toyota have the advantage of having the hydrogen fuel cell program done with their automotive side so again lowering the risks.


Companies Like JCB, Cummins, Duetz Liebherr are all developing Hydrogen IC engines again this will have its own issues and in my opinion wont be successful because of a number of issues, like Spark ignition low compression rations pre ignition and hydrogen storage to say just a couple.

So how long will it be before shareholders in Hyster are wanting to see results in sales on their hydrogen fuel cell investment, what will happen if these results are not as what have been suggested by Hyster. What would this mean for Hyster
  • Posted 1 Dec 2021 22:50
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
i really don't have a clue
Nwright
Heli did not mention the lack of refuelling infrastructure - that was an editorial analysis based on the state of the market.
  • Posted 25 Nov 2021 10:19
  • Reply by TheEditor
  • Queensland, Australia
The editor
Tat2dPete

There are a number of projects in Scotland for ammonia like the Orkney islands project. It takes a lot of energy to crack ammonia back into hydrogen, then there are a number of other issues with hydrogen purity and high pressure. On ammonia as long as the right safety measures are taking ammonia is fine as a fuel.
  • Posted 25 Nov 2021 03:47
  • Modified 25 Nov 2021 03:50 by poster
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
In September 2020, the world's first shipment of blue ammonia was dispatched from Saudi Arabia to Japan, where it was used for power generation.

Meanwhile, another potential usage of ammonia rests in fuelling the traditional vehicles running on an internal combustion engine.



In conclusion, ammonia has the potential to play an important role in the transformation of the global energy system as a green and less-CO2 intensive energy source to meet the world's growing energy demand.

The power sector, which would undergo perhaps the most drastic structural shift in this transition when considering the global "greening the energy industry'' drive, could greatly benefit from utilising ammonia - whether blue or green - in meeting its emissions obligations.

Doing more research into Hydrogen Fuel cells and Forklifts, Government Policy (here in Scotland it is a very interesting policy). It is a very complicated subject for sure. But reading various articles it seems Ammonia would be about 80% efficient as a fuel source, they don't specify the parameters for efficiency.
But from what I can tell it seems there are issues with the toxicity and corrosive nature of ammonia hence the idea to use it as a carrier that can be converted back to hydrogen.
Its a very dark rabbit hole to go down for sure.
  • Posted 25 Nov 2021 03:09
  • Reply by Tat2dPete
  • Strathclyde, United Kingdom
Pete

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Recently, "ESG Top 100 A-Share Companies" compiled by the Securities Times was released at the "ESG Development Seminar & 2021 Annual Meeting of Chinese Securities Companies". HELI was ranked among the list.

Movers & Shakers

chief sales office
Seegrid, United States
general manager
AITT, United Kingdom
business line leader
Terex Rough Terrain Cranes, Schaffhausen, Switzerland
managing director
Baoli EMEA, Milan, Italy