That is to say, whatever is the intended purpose of the inching pedal.

The discussions so far have been mostly across the "Pond". Here is one from someone far removed and involved with Fork Lift Trucks for over 30 years, to add another perspective.

It is interesting to note that the original question posed by Vic K was "Shouldn't the training reflect correct (procedures) and be more aligned to the real world?" way back in July 2004. The comments from Canadian & US contributors have quite correctly addressed this question and given their opinion on this. Surely, if not applying the "hand" parking brake was such a safety issue the SDCB FLT (Sit Down Counter Balanced Fork Lift Truck) would have been redesigned by now. With today's available technology it would be a simple matter to have an interlock between the Park Brake and the Lift & Tilt Levers. In the "real World" not only is it impractical to apply the Park Brake over each part of the cycle but as pointed out by other contributors, the park brake would soon become non-operative as it is not designed for such use.

In my opinion, the "inching" pedal that used to be a standard in North American built machines probably set the practice over there. This feature is now incorporated in the main brake pedal by most manufacturers. The machines are designed to be operated with this brake. So coming back to the original question, if the park brake has not been designed for the use that is suggested by the HSE authorities in the UK, does it not make sense to teach & test operators with the devices that the machines are fitted with?

The observation to be noted during the testing of operators is not just to "demonstrate visibly" of applying the Parking Brake but to observe the actual movement of the machine during the lift cycle.

I think all trainers know that training and real life have never been close friends. How many of us drive our cars the way we had to to pass the driving test ? What we provide is basic operator training - the test is to show that the new operator can operate to a basic safe standard. When we train to the L117 (acop) and use the national ABF test sheet we have to mark a penalty every time the hydraulics are used without applying the parking brake or neutralising the transmition - we have absolutely no control over what happens once the operator is released into the work place. The responsibility over that rests firmly with the employer.

Agreed, however, we all know that operators will merely push the inching pedal to disconnect the tranny from ther motor, and torque up the engine to speed up the lift cylinder. So, are they going to 'cry' if they lose the 5 points? Doubt it. And comes the following workday, you can rest assure that the parking brake will not be applied.

Although they are suppose to, I request my trainees to place the tranny in neutral (the next best thing), and although I doubt that experienced operators will follow suit, hopefully the novice operators will get into this good habit.

Am I going to trounce around ensuring that the parking brake is fully engaged, not...however, it is very easy to spot an individual not neutralizing the forklift. Especially when the reversing alarm stays on while the forks are elevating, or descending along the mast.

During a basic operator test the operator is required to operate the park brake during hydraulic operations - if the operator fails to do this he receives a 5 point penalty (per occasion) not disqualification. Training standards call for the brake to be firmly applied - as long as the operator has firmly applied the foot brake during operations he does not receive the penalty. Unfortunately the examiner has no way to check how firmly the operators foot is applied to the brake - our only indication of a firmly applied brake is to see the parking brake applied

Hello, I only discovered & registered for this site today. I agree fully with original post by vic k that operator training should reflect the real world. I have been a Telehandler operator since 1999 & the company i worked for at that time sent me for Telehandler training. When I did my assesment for it it started of with 3 cubes of concrete, 1 was set on a tower, 1 at the top of a hill, & 1 onto a lorry body, then all lifted down & stacked up. During the actual training course about 75% of the practical training time went into lifting the said blocks on & of the tower & lorry body. The training in no way reflected the jobs the operator is faced with on site. The 2nd lift I did after training was roof trusses onto 2 storey houses. I had no idea about using a jib on the machine as it wasn't covered during the course. The course (apart from the "hill" bit) didn't cover using the loaded machine over rough terrain etc. Operators courses all seem to be geared towards the "ideal world" scenario which rarely occurs in any workplace. As for the "handbrake" thing, I would rarely just it except to park the machine up, if i had a cage for lifting people in on the machine, (although in this case the jacks woulb be down anyway), or if waiting for roofers, brickies, etc to take stuff off pallets or the forks.

Bryan

Thanks very much for the info. Will check it out.

Not only have I taken the course, but my company owns an Internet Based Safety Training Module called the IBST that is fully compliant with both OSHA 1910 and 1926. The internet-based forklift training is only good for the three-year refresher for a driver with a good record - no accidents or near misses and so on according to the OSHA Standard. Initial training and Operator Licensing needs to be hands-on with all proper in-truck evaluations. The program can also be used for the classroom portion of the new operator training and then followed up with the hands-on training portion. The Course includes all applicable info to both OSHA and ANSI, and it is complete with a randomly selected test at the end of the course. The student needs to pass the test with a certain percentage to complete this portion of the training, and if they fail you simply reset for them to take over again. It is an excellent product with 23 different OSHA-Compliant subjects like Means of Egress, Fire Prevention / Protection, LOTO and so on. It also keeps a profile for each student and all applicable records for your training compliance records and extremely easy to use. If you are interested in a demo or taking a course, I would be happy to talk with you. We have had phenominal results with the IBST, and my clients love the time savings and record keeping - all hands-off once the student has been set up in the system. The price is extremely reasonable and driven by volume. You can contact me by telephone at (910) 221-9809 or email at safetyeast at charterinternet dot com.

Internet/Distance Learning Operator Training programs: Interested in hearing from anyone familiar with such programs, especially those who have actually taken or completed one. What content do they cover? Are tests comprehensive? Difficult? What materials furnished or required? Cost range? Where did you find them? Your comments and opinions.

As a fully approved Instructor, and training company owner, the subject of handbrake /neutral, before operating any hydraulic control should be considered as to the type of conditions and type of truck in use. With rough terrain and tele handlers, this is totally impracticable as more damage is done to materials than if they are allowed to use hydraulics and move to collect and deliver loads. Other types of truck eg: counterbalance /reach, then yes they should be applied to prevent truck movement during stacking/ destacking operations, please note the word should, as you are aware to pass the test and reach the required standard this is a must, otherwise no pass. But many operators have been using trucks for 20 years plus and never had an accident, and probably never use either, so does this make them a bad operator:: NO it is all down to experience which there is no substitute for, also with many modern trucks braking is automayic anyway.
All accidents are operator error mainly due to to the old addage, familierarity breeds contempt.

As a fully approved Instructor, and training company owner, the subject of handbrake /neutral, before operating any hydraulic control should be considered as to the type of conditions and type of truck in use. With rough terrain and tele handlers, this is totally impracticable as more damage is done to materials than if they are allowed to use hydraulics and move to collect and deliver loads. Other types of truck eg: counterbalance /reach, then yes they should be applied to prevent truck movement during stacking/ destacking operations, please note the word should, as you are aware to pass the test and reach the required standard this is a must, otherwise no pass. But many operators have been using trucks for 20 years plus and never had an accident, and probably never use either, so does this make them a bad operator:: NO it is all down to experience which there is no substitute for, also with many modern trucks braking is automayic anyway.
All accidents are operator error mainly due to to the old addage, familierarity breeds contempt.

If you study the history of the neutral/hand brake stacking procedure, you will most likely find that it was not any legislature but rather the forklift manufacturers who devised this procedure. You can still find this procedure in many forklift operator manuals.

This stacking procedure could apply in the US despite OSHA or the B56 standards lack of direct comment on stacking procedures. One of the training areas that must be covered in the US is the operator's manual provided by the manufacturer.

OSHA 1910.178(l)(3)(i)(M) requires additional operator training for: "Any other operating instructions, warnings, or precautions listed in the operator's manual for the types of vehicle that the employee is being trained to operate."

_____

New Zealand's Approved Code of Practice for Training Operators and Instructors of Powered Industrial Trucks (Forklifts) originally required full use of the neutral/hand brake procedure. It was later revised to read as follows: "The correct stacking procedures using the inch-brake pedal, when applicable, should be encouraged as most forklifts have a torque converter and inch-brake pedal. It is not necessary to apply the hand brake except as a learner or in dangerous conditions such as elevating a person in an approved work platform. For internal combustion (engine) trucks that do not have an inch-brake pedal control (i.e. clutch models), select neutral and apply the park brake. On electric forklifts, apply the foot brake while stacking or destacking. The mast should have only sufficient rear tilt to maintain the forks horizontal for stacking, or to keep the load stable when stacking/destacking."

Thank you Vic and Columbia! I was beginning to think I was the only person who was astonished by the content of this argument. If you feel you are correct, you can be passionate about your argument without be so unprofessional. Being so defensive and making personal attacks can only make one wonder how sure you are of your position. Let's share our knowledge so we can all learn something - not make personal attacks on our fellow trainers.

It is very disappointing to see such an excellent initiative as the discussion forums degenerate into personalised arguments. I agree totally with Columbia and am surprised by Wayne_C's comments given his otherwise excellent contributions to the forum. People should be passionate but should retain professionalism and respect for others' opinions no matter how much they might disagree. Let's get back to a more civilised argument as opposed to these type of comments.

I am a first time visitor to this chatroom. I must say that I am rather surprised at how safety professionals such as yourself can easily turn an important topic such as safety training, and it does not matter exactly what topic we are discussing, into a fighting match. I am a trainer who has have been in the field for many years and I have come across some pretty nasty characters, but none that have tried to diminish ones credibility, like some of you on this board have tried to do. If I had one piece of advice or comment to share with you, it would have to be "Keep your eye on the ball" Let's not forget why we became safety professionals in the first place.

To Ken UK,

Well Ken excuse me, if I hurt your feeling, I apologise.

How about we get back on topic and discuss this handbrake issue properly.

I again challenge you to state your exact case in short form one point at a time.

I will respond likewise.

Now you resort to things such as good job theres some distance between us......You the one with immature attitude your the one who wont see how Training standards are set and adhered to in other countries as for me bieng accused of bieng unreasonable.... well thats your choice i train to standards and have many hundreds of recomendations and letters of thanks......
Safety instructor ????? I am a Instructor / Examiner RTITB & ITSSAR.... I never see what you qualifications are just remember i posted a straight forward repl to a question about Hand brake LAW you decided that your way is the only way well as stated watch over the next few years when a dinosuar like you set in your old ways dont conform to incoming codes of practise and you training causes an accident and you get sued for dangerous training. You are a typical trainer that lowers the standards and gives the good trainers a Bad Name So on that Note your posts will be ignored and treated with the contemp they deserve.

P.s You where the one who changed the subject you originally stated about the use of hanbrake i stated the laws with regards to use of hand brake in accordance with the Code Of Practise. Produced within the Uk by the Health & Safety Executive.
Which is LAW with no exception so come here with your ways and your test would simply be a failure for amassing to many points.=========================================================================================
And your virtual threat Quote "To Ken UK Lucky for you, there is some distance between us." Unquote i think just about sums you up.

To Ken UK

Lucky for you, there is some distance between us.

First, you have a very big mouth!
And such an immature attitude!

This forum is for mature professionals to discuss forklift issues, and you do not know me at all, I have never heard of you before and to make all af your accusations as you have against me, while not knowing me at all is very sad, on your part!
I do not understand what provoked your aggressive behaviour, I can only guess that you are the type of "safety instructor" that enjoys the power of the position and that you are some type of dictator that does not like to be challenged!
I suppose you have never been accused of being unreasonable and/or ridiculous? Ha!

Secondly you have avoided the question about "what is your actual arguement?"

Third, I forgot to include my signature last time, but not this time.

You continue to make me laugh you i see you have now removed your signature.
As for nice guy part were are talking about Training standards and untill you comprehend the words Training and Standards you standards will always lag far behind the world on these issues.
Standards are set for safety persons Novice or experienced legal requirements stay the same... You would fail the Fork lift test in the Uk every time because you believe standards differ between trainess.... One Standard One Rule This is how standards are Correct.
Uk Fork lift legislation is the standard that the rest of the world is lead by..
You state in Canada you have no such legislation because its not an issue.......
My suggestion to you is watch this space and when you follow along with Decent safe legislation and it will happen you can look back at these posts and think again.
On the point of emigrating to canada i would not want to if your standards are that poor. As for my so called English when you get a trainee and he cant read the question paper you set him.... i gues you would fail him... i would instead ask him the questions verbally ,,,,,
So if you want to pick up on my english thats fine but english is not the discussion here training is....
I will end my post here with the final statement ,,,,, As far as Fork lift Training goea A1__s i am sorry to have to say i have forgotten more about FLT training than you actually Know about FLT Training

So Canada Trains to poor standards thats all i came here to find out and i hope all Traners in Canada are not as narrow minded as A1___S is He / She is an absoulute disgrace to any Flt Trainer


Ok here is Joke of the year...

Alberta Forklift Safety Council Serious about safety!

Great joke

To Ken,
To get a job in Canada Ken you would need to improve your "English" first, I am talking about comprehension skills here,

Your arguement is about about training to use the hand brake while placing a load?
Is that correct?
My argument is that in Alberta, Canada we have no such legislation because this is not an issue, our experienced operators always use the inching pedal only during load handling and only use the handbrake for parking as this is what its primary function is.
However we let our new inexperienced operators use the handbrake during load placement, but only for a short time, because as their skill level increases they naturally develop skills with the inching pedal.
Oh by the way, if you wish to immigrate to Canada, you must pass the "nice guy test" first. As we in Canada strive to be tolerant and get along with others.
You might not qualify!

Cheers