With Kalmar looking to produce container handling equipment in Poland to make them competitive in the market , does this spell the end for Linde big trucks in the UK and where does this leave Hyster in Holland

From what i understand if you want to do well in a area you need a manufacturing facility there , This might be one reason why some eropean manufactures have not done a well in North America. Chinese companies are now starting to realize this as well Sany have a manufacturing facility in North america. HC with the type up with NACCO and in future Briggs will also do well in the North American market against Clark who will lose market share.

The manitou HC deal has effected Toyota in france europes second largest market this will also effect Linde with the Fenwick brand as manitou are the leading French brand.

The NACCO Briggs tie up will be done next year and HC will become part of this.In the future Chinese manufactures will become more integrated with some of the construction Companies offering other Chines manufactures machines and some staying more local.

From what i have herd the KION Baoli deal has not done very well and i can see Voltas using the old OM trucks in India.


It will take time but in the short term there will defiantly be more companies coming together over the next couple of years.

Companies Like Cargotec who control the container handling market we see their sale shrink as more competition will see lower prices how cargotec will deal with this has yet to be seen. The NACCO deal will see Hyster move out of small truck to concentrate on large trucks and container handling trucks and Yale take over small trucks and warehouse equipment.

As far as China entering the market- they will have an uphill battle. Anything made in China has a bad rep in the US. Everything from TV's to clothing, when it's made it China- it signifies one thing- cheap- in every sense of the word. This may be an unfair stigma, but it's one most Americans share & one China will have to overcome.

Clark learned this lesson when they moved their manufacturing to Korea. Even with Clark's extensive dealer network, their trucks from that era were less that spectacular. It's no wonder that they're now #14. Again- they're fighting an uphill battle.

If China is to compete, the trucks they sell will have to be less expensive & of better quality than the trucks on the market today. On top of that, a dealer network will have to be put in place & millions in replacement parts will have to be in inventory in this country- not China.

This is how Toyota got to be in the position they enjoy now. Unfortunately, their prices are not so competitive & their quality isn't what it used to be. Time will tell if Toyota will do what it takes to keep their #1 spot.

Rumours and speculation is something that is not true. The fact that A shandong company the day after they said this purchased 70% of Kion Hydraulics (Linde Hydraulics) and 25% of KION Group was not a rumour or speculation it was proven to be true. I don't know what forklift action asked KION but i could guess that is was something like. But i don't geuss i only say what i know is true.

Like i have said earlier the market is set to see a change that has not been seen since the Japanese companies started to come into the market in the 70's. This time it is the Chinese who are to enter the market.


A company that proves this fact is Clark. In the 60's and 70's Clark was a top global forklift manufacturer then came the Japanese into the US market mainly through Toyota Now 30 or 40 years down the line Toyota are the leading company and Clark are not in the top ten in fact they are number 14.


Each market has there own leading companies Europe you have Linde and Junghienrich with Toyota , North America you have Yale, Crown , Cat ,Toyota , Asia you have Mitsi ,Nissan , Komatsu. Now you have the Chinese looking to be part of this buy first buying the technology they need to compete with the top manufactures. Then buy offer this technology at a very competitive price with good service back up.





Clark now seem to be trying to fight back against Toyota with there court case against Toyota in the US , Wonder how this will work out it can't be good for either Clark or Toyota to have there dealer negotiations to come out in open court.
If it proven to be true that Toyota did put pressure on a dealer not to have a competitive brand even in a second company this would change the market and might even change Toyota dealer network. Would they go down the direct way that seems to fathered in Europe.

KION has declined to comment on what it says are "rumours and speculation".

That's not the same as saying "no".

Weichai Power Co Ltd who bought 70% of KION Hydraulics (Linde hydraulics) are owned by the Chinese state. they have a option to purchase more of KION Hydraulics. This is ware all the technology of Linde and Still is. The Chines understand that the market needs more efficient forklifts and hydrostatics are a lot more efficient that torque converter truck. the only reason more companies have not gone Hydrostatic is cost and the fact that Linde who have a quite good system would not sell to other forklift manufactures. The Chinese have said they wanted the KION hydraulic technology and they want to improve the market share of this technology in the rest of Asia. How do they improve this well thats simple Heli the other big Chines forklift company is state owned and all state companies share technology.



Also we did point out that Shandong would purchase KION even though KION said no and had to turn around a couple of day's later and say yes , so we understand the market quite a bit. the market over the next couple of years is in for some major changes not since the Japanese manufactures in the 70's has the market seen such a change.If you look at any Chinese manufactured forklift over 6,000kg they are all the same a copy of a TCM , TCM did a deal with one company but when you deal with state companies all state companies get the technology. Weichai Power own 70% of the shares

Dave, I really don't see the MCFA/ Nissan joint venture going past the engine/ fuel system development. The point of it was designing a system that met the strict EPA Standards for California (which are stricter than a Catholic Nun with a 12" ruler!). Even though MCFA is using the Nissan engine/ powertrain. They are at this time building some Nissan machines in Houston. As for the main players here in the US: Taylor is a major large lift Mnf. especially in the south. Since they are built in Mississippi. They're a great lift, but a few are pushing to gain market on them such as Kalmar. They make a fine product, but some of the other large manufacturers are just not there in quality. Such as Royal, Wiggons and a few others. I can talk confidently about the US market and competitors, but really on the dark outside of the US. I enjoy hearing someone that is knowledgable due to we're in a world economy now. Things that happen in Europe affect us also. Keep up the posting!

Posted by Davelift: "The new KION company will with in a couple of years be supplying hydrostatic transmisions to the rest of the chines manufactures."

Since you know everything about Kion, I'd love to hear you clarify this statement.

Hi Bubman yes i would agree with your points MCFA do seem to be doing well in the US with a very strong dealer network. The point i was looking to raise mainly is in Asia in the construction machinery business. Cat chairman has said publically that the performance of Cat construction equipment has to improve at the moment Cat are the global number one and if they are to stay that way they have to compete more in Asia. In India cat was out sold by JCB , and with the chines manufactures doing well in asia and middle east cat will have to look at these markets. As MCFA work with Nissan on engine and other product development can you see MCFA joining the Nissan TCM new company bringing in Junghienrich. By doing this they could have a better chance of keeping up with the new power houses that are being formed in the market. The new KION company will with in a couple of years be supplying hydrostatic transmisions to the rest of the chines manufactures. NACCO work with HC and Briggs will be another major force. Linde like have been pointed out don't do very well out side Europe around 75% of linde sales are in Europe , again Junghienrich majority of sales are in europe they are trying to improve their us sales with the tie up with MCFA Like you have pointed out in the US there are only four main manufactures in the smaller trucks and three if you were to include Taylor in the larger trucks.

I will say this for Dave, sounds like he has a good feel for the European market. But I think that he's way off when it comes to the North American Market. I've been in this business for over 26 years and one thing that I can tell you, the players and shakers in the UK are completely different than the ones in the US. As for Caterpillar Inc. out of Peoria, not even concerned about the fork lift business. MCFA has done a great job of bringing the manufacturing back state side. Orders are way up. Joint venture w/ Mitsubishi, Cat & Nissan to develop new fuel system that meets EPA's new standards have been a success. Now Jungheinrich has joined MCFA with the Narrow Isle product. As you can read in this issue of Forkliftaction.com MCFA is expanding their Houston plant by 40 %. MCFA is also now manufacturing their larger lifts (DP70) state side instead of over seas. As for the big players here......you do not hear anything of all of the machines ya'll talk about over the pond! In the US it's Cat, Mitsu, Hyster, Yale, Raymond, Crown and Toyota. Everyone else has very little market share and doesn't have much of a presence on the dealership, sales, parts or service side.

Ok Dave I think we should agree to disagree about the tone of the post title, for the record I am not a Linde manager far from it I don't even work for Linde.
All the best with your future project

Herald

First i have never worked or had a connection to Linde or any KION company and have no ax to grind. The post was not aimed at KION but at the hole market. KION has like i said done a deal with Shandong and only a couple of day's after forkliftaction not me asked them about this. To me by declining to comment on what it called rumours and and speculation shows that KION are in panic at the moment. The deal was not done over the last couple of day's but has been going on for some time.

It was both Herald and partsguy5 that said i was wrong while in fact i was shown to be right purely by the fact KION have sold 25% of KION Group and 70% of KION Hydraulics to a Chinese state owned company.

I have said in my post on this subject that Linde has made some very good innovation on the electric side of the forklifts and if there has been any innovation in IC trucks made by forklift manufactures please let me know. I said all manufactures of IC forklifts have not been innovative. Again it was both Herald and partsguy5 who like they like to point out our new truck is suposed to be a copy of a Linde i only pointed out the differences of our truck to Linde.

I would suggest that both Herald and Partguy5 work at Linde probably in management and don't like the fact that KION is being sold to the chinese.


Linde have all ways tried to sell there trucks on their technology that they claim and in some areas rightly so that this is better. Now As most chinese companies work together to control a market other comapnies will infact use Linde technology so how do you both expect Linde to sell say a 7,000kg truck for around $58,000 when a chinese company with the same technology will sell for $45,000.


I also said it would be good for the customer now because companies who are in forklift manufacturing and service are now going to have to be more innovative if they want to succeed and charge a premium for there equipment.




KION shareholders have been looking to sell part of KION from last year i have known about this personally since about Feb this year as i friend of mine told me. I have not put this out until this week when the story broke so how come i have a ax to grind. If none of this was true and KION in fact had not agreed to sell to Shandong then yes i would agree with you that this is the case but the truth is KION have sold and Shandong will end up with all KION group

Well said Herald.
I do believe he has a ax to grind.

So what your saying is the Chinese will eventually buy all of Kion (which they probably will) and then get rid of the brand but keep the technology and produce a cheaper alternative ? All within the next ten years. Why would they want to do that, you seem to have a vendetta against Linde are you a ex employee who now feels the need to spout rubbish on this forum?

Most Companies decline to comment on 'rumours and speculation' whilst negotiations are on going, but you will know that being involved with a company bringing a new innovative truck to the market place lol

the Shandong deal has been done they will buy 25% of KION for 738 Million here comes the start. They will have 25% of kion forklift business and 70% of the Hydraulic business


Well Herald the rubbish i put seems to be right Linde will be gone in less than 10 years. There will be so many hydrostatic chines trucks hitting the market now Linde won't be able to compete at the price they will come in at.



What i find funny is yesterday KION has declined to comment on what it says are "rumours and speculation" and today Shandong purchases 25% of KION Group and 70% of KION Hydraulics so to the people who said it was rubbish and i need to do a little bit more research i dont think i do and what ever i put on here is not rubbish.




all good for customers because prices will drop.