Andy since when don't they pay well??? I know what I started on when I joined and it was in line with Jungheinrich and most of the rest. I left because I had a job offer at an end user I couldn't turn down with a career path I couldn't get anywhere on the industry, or I would still be there. I still deal with crown and their engineers on a daily basis and know the new starters are now on more than I was 2 years ago. Disgruntled ex employee by any chance???