clockwatcher, there is a good chance we know each other, although iam a little further south than you, id imagine, i know a few of the guys from the Mhead and have a feeling that artful dodger was one of them but moved on to PS possibly just before i left, but i could be wrong - There were some nice people there in my time, i served 13 years, but gather this new wave of management are hellbent on making desperate changes to arrest the slide but are making changes at any cost, guys like us who have had to face customers every day bear brunt of it ! There are also some people there who are being paid lots of money in the office who's contribution in the grand scheme of things amounts to very little, and we know who they are, except there are more of them now iam hearing !