Ok chaps take a deep breath, put your hand bags down, shake hands, agree to disagree. Just shows how passionate we are about training I couldn't think of another job I would rather do, very rewarding.

Thanks again for all your comments.

Jason...

No no......leave all as is. Your responses are as expected and I have nothing to hide here. I stand by everything I have said and will be adding more. Been a while since I was faced with straw man and hyperbole, Keep at it. The noise is growing but im sure I can handle it.

So you perceive yourself as an internet warrior trying to stamp out the bullying of a grade school yard tough guy. Cool stuff and i'm sure that the cape fits but do you have anything else to say that is relevant to the discussion in hand or can I go about my business and offer some advise to a fellow UK instructor asking questions that require UK based answers?

Cheers

Jonah

I don't really consider it argumentative, I consider it more like; I don't like to allow myself or others to be bullied by someone claiming to not be a bully.
You may have heard the quote of Edmund Burke; "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing".

By the way Jonah, I would be pleased to go back and edit my responses to your posts, should you decide you would rather not have the world and their dogs see your statements about and around the "mother's meeting", existing forever on the internet, and decide on your own to edit your posts so they sound more professional and less like a grade school yard tough guy.

Thanks.

Oh my Edward- we are the argumentative type. Chill out man before you give yourself an ulcer.

Cheers

Jonah

I don't always speak/read "normal" English (I am from Miami, Spanglish was the spoken tongue in my grade school) so when I see the word "sorry" I often think it is an apology, and don't catch onto the context right away.
my bad.

Hi Edward

I didn't think I had apologized and lets face it there's only so much you can talk about travel tilt.

Thanks for your comments.

ZZJASEZZ, I don't think there is any reason for YOU to apologize, and you are correct, it did get off track from the original inquiry.

Re :

ok this kind of got off the subject at hand, sorry for that ZZJASE :o)

Feel free to carry on swoop interesting reading :)

Jonah, you ask "Are you permitted to swap and change you training standards as and when it suits in the US?"
I think JoeM answered that when he said "In the USA, OSHA demands compliance with all training topics listed, but allows you to disregard those an employer can demonstrate are not applicable", I think most reasonable folks would consider a 16 year record as "can demonstrate are not applicable".
And no, I can not share the name of the company, as I do not have their permissions to advertise their business. Can you divulge the names of any of your customer's in a public forum? I know we do not ever, without specific written permissions.
?Perhaps that too is different between the US and the other side of the pond? If it ever becomes public domain information, I will be sure to return and inform you, the world and their dogs of whom they are. On this side of the pond, such a disclosure would be considered {at best unprofessional, and more likely} actionable in a court of law.
Jonah, you say "Nothing personal intended", yet you had previously said; "they shouldn't be operating a truck and should be attending the latest mothers meeting instead. =paragraph= What surprises me even more is that the OP says in his sig that he is an ITSSAR FLT Instructor? This is basic stuff. Should know better". I know I can see how that may appear 'personal', even if you do not.

I know I appreciate the input and discussion, Jonah, and while I won't bother making a false disclaimer that I am saying 'nothing personal', I would also note that your assumption is not universally agreed with as to the importance of; "selecting neutral and applying the handbrake before using the hydraulics", even though that is the standard where you provide your services. On my side of the pond, that regulation is viewed with incredulity by most forklift operators, and is often pointed to as 'government over reach'.

If you read my post you may have recognized that I _had_ "simply accept that tilting the forks back" is generally 'best practice', and had been _corrected_ by the corporate safety officer of a customer, for their operation ONLY.

Jonah, you also make a very contradictory statement in; "I have no reason to doubt that the business you refer to is so insistent on travelling with their forks tilted forward"... "Could you possibly divulge that business name so that I could check your 16 year safety record and verify that they do indeed insist on travelling with forks tilted forward"..."I think it needs verifying".
Your statement basically calls me a liar, in an open forum,,, you go even further with your "not personal" attack in stating; "I very much doubt that you would be convinced in whatever was shown to you". I think that calls your basic understanding of 'professionalism' _and_ your use of 'The Queen's English' into question. It is -not- _MY_ 16 year safety record, it is the record of a particular facility in a huge company, and it -is- a personal attack on my credibility, about something I have no reason to be less than absolutely honest about.


Jonah, do you know this forum allows us to edit our comments after we post?

heh, well mrfixit
if a company has a 'hotdog' operator then maybe they should re-evaluate and be paying more attention if they allow him to operate the lift in such a manner.
Now a days most companies i go to do not tolerate that type of lift driving period... they maintain a 0 tolerance rule.
Might see it in the smaller mom and pop businesses because they don't seem to be 'watched' as closely as big businesses. Not saying they aren't monitored at all but it does seem less so than big corporations are. But even that is changing.
When any business operator or owner starts seeing what insurance costs are from injuries no matter where they originate from, they do start paying more attention to the things that cause them. For the cost effect it creates and mostly for the safety of their workers.

ok this kind of got off the subject at hand, sorry for that ZZJASE :o)

Swoop

ty for taking time to post your comment, agree with most of what you have to say. Travel tilt is manly used on slopes uneven floor speed bumps and as mentioned in the previous post railway lines, although I've never come across a situation where a FLT has to travel over railways lines.Now if a pedestrian was to walk close next to the forks on a FLT they only have themselves to blame if their legs ankles or whatever comes into contact with the FLT

I know that if you're out in the paved yard area, and you're a hot dog operator who drives too fast, the forks should be tilted back if you try to cross railroad tracks...... They needed new forks and carriage rollers. The operator slowed down and was more alert afterwards, too. :-)

you know...
i'm really curious how the statistics came about on this ankle injury v/s fork tilt angle point that keeps being mentioned.
How many people had to get ran over (hit in the ankle) before you got a valid statistic?
Seriously there would have had to be several incidents happen in different ways to gain these said stats, where there test subjects? Did they use crash test dummies? Does this happen enough to warranty a specific study on this particular point on injuries to specific body parts from forklift impacts? And what are the study results specifically? (not just a general generalization).
Did you do a nationwide search in every hospital and business for ankle & leg injuries from forklift impacts? Was this general information provided by OSHA in a study?
I'm really curious how many people injured this fact was derived from.
I've been in this industry since 1977 and have seen alot of accidents resulting in all sorts of injuries and even death but this ankle/leg injury from fork impacts i may have only seen a couple of times in my whole career.
And to be honest in all these years and all the safety training classes i've taken, injuries from lifttruck accidents were just generalized and not compartmentalized to specific body parts involved in the accident.
As far as how to travel with the forks positioned or even with the lift being stationary the only points that were given in any of these training classes were :
- empty forks while traveling = low to the ground a couple inches off the floor even/level
- loaded forks while traveling or stationary = tilted back
- forklift parked = forks on the ground with mast tilted forward

these were always the 3 key points that were always given in any of these classes i've taken over the years, they were all from hyster, caterpillar and yale and even through all the management changes and repeated retraining over the years these points were always given and no specific points were changed as far as i remember.
This new method of traveling with forkes tilted up even when empty is something i've never heard of, this discussion is the first time i've ever seen it and makes me think someone is trying to reinvent the wheel here or maybe it is just the difference between European standards and US standards.
And yes i do believe there is a difference, i see it fairly regularly in these discussions on this forum and other venue's as well.

My own personal/professional opinion as to how an operator should travel with forks positioned? they should be level to the floor and low to the floor and tilted slightly forward when unloaded.
when carrying a load always tilted back.

As for injury statistics and trying to change a standard on how forks are positioned, personally i don't think it really matters how they are set, if someone gets hit it will permanently mangle them for life period no matter how the forks are positioned and arguing over the extent of the injury and trying to use that to prove a point or institute a new rule is ludicrous and just plainly nit picking.
Instead of focusing on how an operator carries his forks up or down and beating that horse to death, i think if a plant has issues with injuries and forklifts or are trying to set rules in place to prevent such a thing they should be concentrating on employee safety and how they conduct themselves in the production traffic areas. Wear the appropriate PPE so they can be seen by forklift operators and be especially aware of where the forklifts are around them at all times. Yes the forklift operator is supposed to watch out for pedestrians also but i think it would be safe to say that the majority of accidents/injuries that occur are from the pedestrian being somewhere he/she is not supposed to be and not paying attention of their surroundings putting themselves in harms way. Forklifts cannot stop on a dime and anyone with any common sense knows this.
In the real world pedestrians have the 'right of way' on the road no matter what. In the industrial world pedestrians have a 'right of way' but in most cases all the signage i've ever seen gives the forklift traffic the 'right of way'. It is the employees responsibility to 'watch out for forklift traffic'. If an employee steps out in front of a forklift i don't care how the forks are positioned, it WILL hurt them badly and i do not think it would make much difference whether they are positioned up or down unless the employer is letting the insurance company dictate how the lift is operated based on the extent of an injury based on how it impacts a person and the extent of the injury it can cause. If this is the case then all the OSHA studies and surveys and stats wouldn't mean a thing now would it?

ok i think i've said enough and even managed to throw a new ball into the court...
lets see how this discussion turns now ;o)

Joe, I love the line "what's the best tilt angle to hit a pedestrian"?
thanks

Thanks again for your replies. I would have never of thought that this issue would create all this interest.

I would like to make it clear. When I am training I apply the same standards like everyone else in this thread including the use of travel tilt. This is because I'm covering myself and ensuring that the trainee has the knowledge of the possible hazards in their environment.

All I'm saying if the floor is level,no slopes/inclines,no kerbs etc etc do I stop a FLT driver for not using travel tilt and explain that the reason that you need too is -

That`s how you where trained.
Because it is good practice.
Because of floor hazards although there arn`t any.
Because you can repair a leg bone easier than an ankle bone.

I hate to disappoint you all but there is a training world and a real world I have seen both sides. FLT drivers are constantly under pressure to achieve their targets. If you all really think that FLT operators drive to how they have been tested you need to take your blinkers off.
Apply the tilt and taking it off when you are moving over a hundred pallets per shift takes time. I always drive to test standard and yes always use the travel tilt but will never keep up to speed with another driver.