I ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS POST so that I can forward it to the people that need to hear it, and that can hopefully help promote a much needed change.
As I am sure we are all aware of the situation regarding the material handling industry and each manufacturer having their own software and passwords, and if you are not aware of it you will be affected by it sooner rather than later probably. (Read below for a little more information regarding it, if you are unfamiliar).
I am in the process of puting this together so that I can bring it to MHEDA (Material Handling Equipment Distributors Association) and other associations I feel could help resolve this issue, to see if we can get a much needed change in our industry. Some may agree with this and some may not but the truth of the matter is that we all continue to hurt ourselves and probably the customer the most by the way we are doing things.
Currently, most, if not all manufacturers' have set up their own software programs, cables, handsets, cords, pass codes etc. to work on their machines, now some of them work on another make or model occasionally but for the most part they are specific to that manufacturer's machine. The problem with this way of doing things is that it is making it increasingly difficult for a customer to choose who they would like to work on their equipment. With most of the dealers in my area refusing to sell the handsets, software, give pass codes etc. I understand the need for making money and I understand the benefits of not giving that software/information to your competition/customer that may do their own repairs. But my bottom line is this: The customer should have the choice of who they want to have service/repair their equipment and should not feel like they are not given a choice of who they can use by only being able to use the dealer no matter what they charge, or what customer service experience they offer etc. I have personally spoken with several customers that do not want the dealer of their make/model of equipment on their property at all (even going as far as paying other people to do non software needed work on their machine when it is under warranty even though they could have gotten their machine fixed for free). Then there are others customers that have stated to me that right now they are struggling badly and cannot afford to have the dealer of their machine do the work because they are the most expensive in the state but cannot find anyone else that has the software etc. so they feel they have no choice. Even others that cannot afford the 3 or 4 day (or sometimes longer) wait time to have the dealer of their specific machines come to repair them.
There are a lot of ways/backdoors to get the software, cables, handsets, passwords etc. that you need but it isn't always possible and it wastes time and causes un-needed frustration. I've spoken with several dealers that are torn on this because in some of their locations it benefits them because they have the majority share of the market and in other locations it hurts them.
I am not saying there are not a lot of factors involved in the way things have been done so far: liability, legality etc. But there has to be a way that we can change this for the better (like the automobile industry has) I think the main difference between us and the automobile industry is that there are not 5 material handling dealers for the same machines (ex: Hyster, Toyota etc) within the same territory or just down the street from each other. There is typically only one Material Handling dealer per make per state/territory and if a company's corporate sends a certain make of machine or if you just like the quality of a certain machine better than the others and you do not like the dealer for that machine in your territory you should not feel that you have no choice but to use them.
Bottom line the automobile industry tried to keep the software and password proprietary in the beginning and it worked until people like all of us (small businesses, independents, customers, etc) stood up and said 'enough'. And now I am saying: 'enough.' Will this affect my business in a negative way... yes it will, will it affect my business in a positive way... yes it will, but the bottom line is the customer should have the ability to choose who is right for the repair of their machines. I shouldn't, as a dealer, get to choose and neither should any other dealer or manufacturer.
My entire goal for this, is for it to be a main topic that we can all get together about and find a better solution for all of us and for the customers.
Print and send this (or refer them to this posting) to as many people as you know (customers, mechanics, independents, dealers, etc.) so that everyone is aware and able to hopefully help make a change in our industry.
I appreciate your time and look forward to your responses, There is alot of people effected by this and if we come together we can make a change.
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Oh the safety issues, yea, let me see here, been in this business for (16) years with three large dealerships. Yea, I have seen techs come and go, some of them hire in with a little toll box from ***mart. They are trained in how to hook up a laptop to pull a code and start replacing parts. Yea, just because you are charging alot of money for service and hi-jack someone with a laptop does not make you anymore safe then jeffy**** working on your forklift.
Im sure every dealer is trained by the factory on how to justify the ***rape for high price service and parts oh and the laptop. Give me a break people. This is just a way to lock someone down by the manufacture and the dealership. Manufactures teach this process to the dealerships all the time, (make your money on the parts and service.
Any customer should have the right to pick and choose who does the service work on there equipment. Please do not compare a forklift to a BMW, way off base.
Oh the safety issues, yea, let me see here, been in this business for (16) years with three large dealerships. Yea, I have seen techs come and go, some of them hire in with a little toll box from ***mart. They are trained in how to hook up a laptop to pull a code and start replacing parts. Yea, just because you are charging alot of money for service and hi-jack someone with a laptop does not make you anymore safe then jeffy**** working on your forklift.
Im sure every dealer is trained by the factory on how to justify the ***rape for high price service and parts oh and the laptop. Give me a break people. This is just a way to lock someone down by the manufacture and the dealership. Manufactures teach this process to the dealerships all the time, (make your money on the parts and service.
Any customer should have the right to pick and choose who does the service work on there equipment. Please do not compare a forklift to a BMW, way off base.
The safety issues brought up is a good one. However, I know alot of customers over the years who were upset by the fact that they couldn't slow down lift speeds and drive speeds without a factory tech and blow it off. Freely available information and documentation would solve more issues that it would create.
I have been into dealers all over the US and I regularly see trucks of all makes and models and the proprietary systems don't stop much. The lack of information and support though do cause them to guess which is dangerous I will give you that. However, this could be solved if the big guys would take a bit of the original posters advice and be more open with their documentation and recommendations. The idea that they can keep people captive is not reality.
The one thing I'm not hearing here is SAFETY. Independants and fly by nights aren't given passwords or the equipment to calibrate because they are NOT properly trained, these are failsafes to protect the customers investment the operators running them and the mechanics working on them.
You get what you pay for, if you allow an untrained mechanic to work on your BMW and it takes twice as long as a factory tech what have you saved and worse what if he fry's it and then you have to pay the dealer to fix his screw up which will likley cost twice of what it should have origionally cost at the dealer.
anyway i'm rambling now but I think I've made my point.
Have a safe day.
In my opinion forklift manufacturers are short sighted on this whole issue. The idea of using proprietary software and components to protect their dealer base just makes it difficult for service to be provided on their trucks for the user. Not to mention that these parts and systems typically are not justified by their cost. What I think manufacturers of forklifts should do is sell their trucks with lengthy warranties and use that as a mechanism to protect their dealer network. I know we have taken the philosophy of using easy to get common parts, and have an open information policy in regards to technical support on our Big Joe lift trucks. We want our customers to be able to get their forklift up and running easily even if it is years down the line and on to the second or third owner of the equipment.
It would be great if the big manufacturers of forklifts would stop worrying so much about marketshare and ITA numbers all the time and focus on service, support, and profitability for their dealers rather than protectionism and complexity. Modern forklifts have become a commodity and at their core are a tool. I don't see proprietary systems or parts really adding value for anyone, nor making the equipment work any better. Just marketing spin more than anything. At least that is the way I see it.
If I had a dollar for everytime I heard a factory rep tell me that (your suppose to sell cheap and make your money on parts and service) I have sold Hyster, Toyota, TCM they all say the same thing. Make your money on parts and service. But tell the customer this is the best forklift to buy for the money. Im just a sales guy and I have the software for Hyster, Yale, Cat, Mits, Toyota, cables, plugs etc. It is not that hard to come by if you know the right people. My reason for having this software is so that when I look at trade in units I just plug up the cord and see what the real story is, Hours, Trans hours, miles, setting on trans, hydro sittings etc. I even have the software for the new Taylor TX forklifts. One good thing about having the softeare is no one can lie about the hours and service.
I could not agree more that their needs to be some sort of standards put in place. I worked at a Hyster dealership and some of the things going on there are crazy. Hyster won't allow any one to work on fortis trucks without a tarining class and won't allow anyone except dealers to have the software and cables needed to work on the fortis and ac trucks except GM!!? How does that seem fair to a regular customer that GM is important enough to get the things they need but no one else is. But the problem stretches further up the chain to NACCO as a whole. Making it so that even between Hyster and Yale the software is not compatable. At some point someone must step in and say enough is enough when you have to pay $200 just for a dealer to show up because no one else can, no wonder the economy ***.
No. We only have this one actual dist. center. We have branch offices all over but they don't use many forklifts in those.
Are you guys a national account with Raymond?
Chublil, I have Raymond 420s, 8400s, 7400s and 5400s. The hour meter readings are in the display so not worried about that. My problem is I keep a VM (same one is used on the 5400 and 7400) in my parts cabinet that is blank for quick repair but no longer have access to software to program it after install. I can't afford to have a pc. of equipment down until one can come from Raymond so I then have to call my old employer to send a tech just to program the VM.
JOED, I worked for Raymond and am also level two certified, and I am positive you can order the VM pre-loaded from the factory. this also goes for your current hour meters as well. Just give them your model and serial number, hour meters and any options on the truck. We did it to maintain the warranty info (hours) on CFPM units. I did work for a factory dealership, dont know if that made a difference or not.
one answer to this is to say when you get the equipment you want all software and cables to enable you to repair there equipment or you will look else where. I'm sure faced with this they will have no choice but to let you have them. Or you can say you will go else where.
I agree 100% that we techs should full access to all aspecs of truck repair inclueding software and cables. I just ran into this road block with a John Deere dealer over excavator hydrualic diagnostic software. It is not right that the OEM's can twist arms and force us to just relie on them to come out and repair the equipment for us. And not let customers choose who the want to repair their equiment.
I've been working on forklifts for 26 years with the last 11 as a ceritified Raymond tech until I went to the otherside as in house maint. My problem is that 5% of repairs. On the Raymond 7400 and 5400 when you change the VM you have to have a laptop with the proper software as they come in "clean". On Clark tier II & III, some check engine codes can't be cleared with the accelerator pedal and once again a laptop is needed. I would love to see a standardized system as in the automotive industry but due to the diversity of forklifts I'm not sure it is possible. As for end user rights, if I buy a pc. of equipment, I should be allowed the access to anything needed to repair that pc. of equipment.
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