I ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS POST so that I can forward it to the people that need to hear it, and that can hopefully help promote a much needed change.
As I am sure we are all aware of the situation regarding the material handling industry and each manufacturer having their own software and passwords, and if you are not aware of it you will be affected by it sooner rather than later probably. (Read below for a little more information regarding it, if you are unfamiliar).
I am in the process of puting this together so that I can bring it to MHEDA (Material Handling Equipment Distributors Association) and other associations I feel could help resolve this issue, to see if we can get a much needed change in our industry. Some may agree with this and some may not but the truth of the matter is that we all continue to hurt ourselves and probably the customer the most by the way we are doing things.
Currently, most, if not all manufacturers' have set up their own software programs, cables, handsets, cords, pass codes etc. to work on their machines, now some of them work on another make or model occasionally but for the most part they are specific to that manufacturer's machine. The problem with this way of doing things is that it is making it increasingly difficult for a customer to choose who they would like to work on their equipment. With most of the dealers in my area refusing to sell the handsets, software, give pass codes etc. I understand the need for making money and I understand the benefits of not giving that software/information to your competition/customer that may do their own repairs. But my bottom line is this: The customer should have the choice of who they want to have service/repair their equipment and should not feel like they are not given a choice of who they can use by only being able to use the dealer no matter what they charge, or what customer service experience they offer etc. I have personally spoken with several customers that do not want the dealer of their make/model of equipment on their property at all (even going as far as paying other people to do non software needed work on their machine when it is under warranty even though they could have gotten their machine fixed for free). Then there are others customers that have stated to me that right now they are struggling badly and cannot afford to have the dealer of their machine do the work because they are the most expensive in the state but cannot find anyone else that has the software etc. so they feel they have no choice. Even others that cannot afford the 3 or 4 day (or sometimes longer) wait time to have the dealer of their specific machines come to repair them.
There are a lot of ways/backdoors to get the software, cables, handsets, passwords etc. that you need but it isn't always possible and it wastes time and causes un-needed frustration. I've spoken with several dealers that are torn on this because in some of their locations it benefits them because they have the majority share of the market and in other locations it hurts them.
I am not saying there are not a lot of factors involved in the way things have been done so far: liability, legality etc. But there has to be a way that we can change this for the better (like the automobile industry has) I think the main difference between us and the automobile industry is that there are not 5 material handling dealers for the same machines (ex: Hyster, Toyota etc) within the same territory or just down the street from each other. There is typically only one Material Handling dealer per make per state/territory and if a company's corporate sends a certain make of machine or if you just like the quality of a certain machine better than the others and you do not like the dealer for that machine in your territory you should not feel that you have no choice but to use them.
Bottom line the automobile industry tried to keep the software and password proprietary in the beginning and it worked until people like all of us (small businesses, independents, customers, etc) stood up and said 'enough'. And now I am saying: 'enough.' Will this affect my business in a negative way... yes it will, will it affect my business in a positive way... yes it will, but the bottom line is the customer should have the ability to choose who is right for the repair of their machines. I shouldn't, as a dealer, get to choose and neither should any other dealer or manufacturer.
My entire goal for this, is for it to be a main topic that we can all get together about and find a better solution for all of us and for the customers.
Print and send this (or refer them to this posting) to as many people as you know (customers, mechanics, independents, dealers, etc.) so that everyone is aware and able to hopefully help make a change in our industry.
I appreciate your time and look forward to your responses, There is alot of people effected by this and if we come together we can make a change.
Showing items 31 - 45 of 93 results.
Bashing ether dealers or independents is -very- counterproductive, and only shows a shortsighted understanding of the world (that is sometimes shortened to the single word; "ignorance") and your own place in it, and I direct that as much at forkliftchick and bigdogs as I do at whomever is "bashing" the dealer's techs, too. I would hope you might consider the harm it does to your reputation as a "straight shooter".
I have fought my nature to "weigh in" to much of this discussion, but now that I am here, I would like to ask forkliftchick what would constitute "properly trained" that should be allowed passwords and software/hardware for some brand not the same as the logo on the truck. Should/would a Yale tech who was a master tech be allowed the passwords for a Hyster? why not if "properly trained" was the reasoning?
To John's remarks re; cell phone cables. The I.E.E.E. is currently working to form a consensus for a universal cell phone charging and information downloading connection, and just maybe the I.E.E.E. will be who gets around tuit and formalizes a P.I.T. connection, but I would expect the standard to look far more like a bluetooth wireless networking connection about the time obd4 hits for cars.
Bigdogs says "don't whine when the info isn't readily available to you"
I guess bigdogs has never tried to "stretch" his brain around something that he could not ask his daddy how it should be done? I find your remarks about "dinosaur" to be offensive and also shortsighted. Those "dinosaurs" are who provides that education [you are so proud of having] from a dealership.
No matter who you are, there will always be people that know more about somethings, and less about some things than yourself, and I am also willing to put my "savy" about things [computer and electronics] technical and things forklift related against your youthful exuberance anytime.
After over 35 years as a tech and still a tech*, (and I considered my self a tech -first- when I was in management too) I can say only a couple of things for sure, one is that NO ONE knows all there is to know about this industry or it's products, and if they think they do, then for sure they do NOT.
One other thing I can say is that no one is "all by themselves" or "self taught" or a "self made man". We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.
* I consider "tech" to be a very honorable profession, in an industry that is not exactly known by it's customers to be all that honorable.
All that said, our own communications with each other over places like this forum gives all of us a better understanding of what the problems can be, and how to get them fixed properly and safely, (in my opinion) far more than if we are brand name dealership employees or not. Maybe those who work for dealerships and approve of the manufacturer's "close to the chest with their [information] cards" attitude should censor themselves from ever asking any technical questions (here or any where else in public).
Manufacturers reps (dealers) have one set of problems that act as blinders and independents have a different set of problems/blinders, and each has their place in the overall "free market", and a large number of really capable techs I have known over the years have worked on both sides of the street, as well as "in house" fleet maintenance, and at no point were they "better than everyone else" for some choice they had made.
I heard an old saying in this industry; be careful who you kick on the way up, you may have to kiss them on the way back down.
I disagree, dealers have the potential to report and show where dollars are wasted and drill down in to misuse/wheels/repairs etc.
We as a dealer add techs every year and get busier and busier.
Most in house service companies up here have realized the importance of having properly trained techs and have opted out of having there own in house maintenance and going back to the dealer.
This may not be the case in the U.S but it is here and although I don't agree with the way Bigdogs stated it I have to agree with him. Most in house techs you will find were factory or dealer techs that couldn't cut it and that's why they are on here bashing dealers.
Big dog
Even people that are factory trained still get caught out with problems the only difference is a dealer can throw parts at the problem to solve it and return the parts they dont need were a self employed guy cant thats the difference
Trucks are getting that complictated factory trained engineers is not enough most big dealers have there own technical staff to help engineers were self employed guys dont have that luxury.
Even if you work for a dealer you have the same problem to when it comes to working on different brands.
BIG DOG,
Yes, I grew up when there were a lot of corner gas stations with repair service (used to go thru the out back trash to find discarded red rubber tire tubes for our homemade sling shots). Plus, I worked in one when I was attending college. They didn't disappear they simply changed to a different form. As an example, in the little ol' town (county population of 60,000) I live in there are 4 "independent" automobile repair busnesses and two corner gas stations (woops they didn't disappear) that still do repairs within 3 miles of where I live - and they all see to be very busy & they are open on Saturdays. Yes, we have 3 factory auto dealerships in our li'll ol' Dogpatch type town with no Saturday service.
So there is room for both & there will always be both. The same holds true for lift trucks. The independepedent has to invest in training & equipment (the investment for one auto diagnostic system runs in the range of $8000 USD per hand set) as well. The biggest differnce in the auto indtry & lift truck is the population of vehicles and the variations of equipment - ICE, electric sit down, narrow aisle, order selectors, etc. Meanng, if the potentional is large engough someone will "back engineer" the diagnostic softwear & sell it to the independets with training. The lift truck industry is relatively small & the investment in R & D to develop software is too high for a comparatively small potentional. market.
BIGDOG, lets not forget that the same factory dealers you talk about offer training to the customers as well. And just because your older than 25 does'nt mean your an idiot. With the economy going the way it is, your factory dealerships are going to lose service dollars to us "dinosaurs" faster than you can say "There's nothing on the call board, why dont you go home early".
Actually from what I have heard PROSHADETREE, the Crown stuff is available to the customer. As far as the handsets used between different users of the Nissan engine, I can tell you the software is identical on the laptops, but the passkeys are different. The cables are all the same also, but the programs are not interchangeable. This goes for the Raymond passkeys as well over to the Toyota's.
It seems to me that fuel control on lifts is already becoming standardized. GFI or Impco have control of the forklift business. Also the one used to power the Nissan engine that I am no familiar with are found in many applications. The controls are the same and the possibility of the same system being used to diagnose the running system is possible. I am also unfamiliar with what Crown uses at the moment to control the John Dere engine in their lift, but will assume they have went they way of other manufacturers and outsourced their fuel management to other companies.
Take the factory training and get the passwords and software.
I see so many industry wanna bee's crying Boo Hoo I can't fix it because they made it to hard. That's because you are a dinosaur and lack the education that you get when you work for a dealer.
New's flash, the day's of resistor trucks and carburators are over.
This may sound harsh but eventually the pace that technology and the safety industry is growing in the material handling market they'll be no room for the uneducated ( I couldn't follow direction so I don't work for a dealer any more) mechanic. and I look forward to it because you make the reputable techs out there look bad.
Remember when every neighborhood had a service station and that's where your father or grandfather took the car to be fixed? look around, they're disappearing because today's cars require factory training to keep them running efficiently and safely.
that's not to say I hold it against anyone wanting to strike it out on their own but don't whine when the info isn't readily available to you.
and pls don't try and tell me that you can work on cars with your aftermaket snap on or mac scanners because any factory tech will tell you that you can get stung by software incompatibility flashing the wrong code sending you in the WRONG direction.
Cheers.
I would like to buy the software and computer hook ups for all makes and modles please let me know or were I can get it
Eddie is right how long will it be before manufactures have a system where the truck reports back to the service center or even the manufacture. What will happen like here in UK is many Manufactures will deal direct through
joint venture dealer companies these will be jointly owned by the interdependent dealer and the manufacture and go direct to the customer and work in specialist areas warehouse, industrial , heavy ,ports ect. Kalmar do this so do Junghienrich and Crown in the UK. By doing this the manufacture will have the confer dance to develop more imaginative truck that answer problems and provide solutions to customers.Unlike the Chines that are all the same.
Agree with your points Eddie. There will always be difference in cable & software - kinda liek cell phones meaning the chargers are always changed (primarily the plug-in connector) from make to make & model to model within the various makes. Why.... $$ to help recover the cost of product development at the engineering & manufacturing end.
If we didn't have differences soon there would be no need for so many manufacturers - just one - sounds socialistic to me.
All the electronics and computers in forklifts are here to stay whether we like it or not i do think its crazy having to have all these different leads and a laptop and software for different types of forklifts in this day and age why they can just build in a mobile 3g sim card or similar into the trucks computer so the truck can report faults directly back to the dealer and the dealer can update that truck or change settings or diagnose the fault in the truck and give real time management of the truck its not hard to do in this day and age
Do i think access to the trucks software and computer and service manuals should be restricted to the dealer only yes because the dealer is selling the trucks and are investing a lot of money in training and all the support needed once the truck is sold to maintain it and stock parts and all the rest of it
Why should a non dealer forklift company or one man band should be allowed access to that when all they offer is a low labour rate becuase they dont have the same outlays in money to fork out to provide full support to what a dealers have to
Good thing about all the electronics and computers in trucks is you can change the whole feel of the truck in the settings quite easily
we need this change think outside the box as a tech for thirty years the change would be welcomed as nissan has a code yale there own toyota raymond its bull sh%t.
Wow you really have had some bad experiences down there, sure there are customers that feel handcuffed but our mentality is that were not happy unless the customer is and we stay quite competitive as far as labor rates go.
My point is only this, experience is a must and there has to be some control over who's doing what. Also using BMW as a comparison is relevant with what equipment costs these day's.
You seem to be getting quite upset over the responses you're getting yet you asked for input on what others think, you didn't honestly beleive eveyone was going to agree with you.
I not trying to start an argument, I respect your comments I just think you should respect others as well.
Have a good day.
the market is getting harder and harder manufactures are being put under pressure from dealers to help protect there investment in becoming a dealer, What will happen in the drive to be more profitable some of the big manufactures will go direct. It has hap-end in the UK Toyota Linde Jungheinrich crown all deal direct what you will see over the next five years will be a closed shop where manufactures have joint ventures with dealers to help be competitive. All forklifts today are the same so it will be down to service to show the difference
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