i Like that , I think KION as a group might still be there but i think the new owner will be more prominent. One of the Chinese manufactures by the shear size of these companies will be up there , Then you will have but not guaranteed Toyota in some form then the new INCJ who will i'm sure will take over part of MCFE and Junghienrich then it anybodies guess who will be next, Crown Clark and Doosan looks like a good tie up. These again do work together. What will be more interesting is markets North America and Europe won't be as important as they are now. Asia will be the dominate area with South america also being important. NACCO to me is the very interesting one with the backing of SAMMON'S they can be right up there. But unfortunately i can see the rest struggling and even some not surviving. What has all ways driven any business is innovation but in the forklift industry this has not really happened. In this i mean counter ballance forklift not warehouse trucks were innovation products have been plenty.



Also over the next five years one company is going to develop a new product that will dominate this type of equipment and change this type of truck for ever


If you look at the mobile phone industry up to 2007 the dominate companies were Nokia, Sony Ericsson then Apple Launched the i Phone in 2007 and now apple and samsung are dominate Innovation can change a industry this is happening all the time in other areas of industry it won't be long before the materials handling industry catch's up. Nokia and Sony are now behinde in less than six years. If it can happen in one industry it can happen in ALL



Way back in 1997 Apple was a company that looked bankrupt with no real direction Steve Jobs came back to lead the company first with the iPod then the iStore now with the iPhone and iPad to become the world's most valuable company.

What the Apple designers did was to look at products people used bring in some innovation develop a platform and software then give people what they wanted , The service companies on the back of these new products developed services which their customers wanted to use and have that brought a benefit to each of them. I would also like to point that as far as i'm aware iPhones are made in China this has not damaged Apple ability to sell these.


What our industry needs is for a company to develop a new type of platform and running system that the service companies can then develop better services around. I have been in and around this industry for over 20 years and in that time there has been no real innovation at least nothing like other industries. the first company to do this will be like Apple the ultimate market Leader, Linde and some other companies have been at the fore front so far but they have to move even quicker if they want to stay there.

As it is often said when one is King of The Hill there is only one way to go & that is not up.

Hi Johnr


Now that the KION deal has been finalized this week this has now been confirmed and the Chinese now own 70% of Linde Hydraulics that has been moved into a new company. How will the German work force feel about working for a Chinese owned company. There must be people in side KION ie Linde and Still who are thinking about there future. Chinese companies are know for moving there own people into top management positions. which is fair if you bought a company you would want it run your way. Goldman and KKR want out of KIOn and are looking for a way out. A IPO won't really work because they would only be able to raise a couple of hundred million this way if they IPO it will fall faster than Facebook so the market know this so won't want to participait in any IPO.

So that will leave only two options a trade sale or a sale to a venture capital company. The Second won't really work Goldman and KKR have shown this so that leaves a trade sale. There are only are one or two companies capable of buying them one is the new japanese company and the other Chinese. As the Chinese own 70% of Linde Hydraulics why would any body want to buy the rest only the Chinese can afford and would want this company.


This again will all come back to Closing European manufacturing plants that don't make money and the ultimate loss of sales in Linde brand. If you look back to the 1970's Clark was a world leading brand now they are struggling to sell
will over the next 10 - 20 years will we see the same with Linde



before people start to say i'm knocking Linde i'm not i'm just pointing out my opinion on how i think KION will look in 10 - 20 Years Time

I agree with your comments most people will stay if they feel good about a company i.e. feel they are recognized & their efforts contribute to the overall success. But in recent history (say the last 20-30 years) that there has been a decrease in loyalty to employee from the company side and lack of trust from the employee side towards the company - due to buyouts, joint ventures, consolidations and changes in top management styles etc.

Hi John


I do agree with you on the skill side but the Chinese own Linde hydraulics so you could see German built Hydraulics in Chinese trucks and Chinese built hydraulics in local markets Like Asia.

I do know that yes some people here in the UK will move from firm to firm when they are machinist even when they are service engineers. But in most cases i think it depends on the company if they treat there employees right and pay a decent wage then they will stay. If you look at a company like JCB 20 30 year service is quite normal and hole families work there so on the moving side i think it is down to the company.


I think what i'm trying to get across here is if you work in a company as a employee that is what you are a employee but if you work in a company that gives you a feeling that you are part of the company then you feel different.

Certainly, the Chinese and other countries could copy the Linde hydrostatic drive system but one factor that might not produce the same results is the approach in manufacturing that Germany has instilled whether it be precious stone cutting or machinist for the Linde driving axle - i.e. the apprentice to journeyman (5 year training) to master journeyman (7 years I think) approach to training and company specific quality standards. Change a job as a machinist at Linde then go to work at Mercedes as a machinist the training starts out at the apprentice level as quality standards and processes are different.
Don't know how it is in the UK but in the States a machinist will jump ship for another 50 cents per hour more.

Hi johnr j i must agree there is a benefit to a linde against some of the smaller trucks but like you have pointed out they have never cracked the US market and 70% of linde sales are in Germany and France two large markets in Europe but not big in other parts of the world , If you look at the 6,000kg - 9,000kg truck range to me this is the best in the market at the moment. and even the 10,000kg - 16,000 kg truck is very good but a little heavy. The point i would like to make is that now the Chinese own Linde Hydraulics how long will it be before we see chinese hydrostactic trucks on the market. With the new shale gas in the US diesel and LPG trucks and now going to dominate this market. on the elec side charging problems will all way's be there. On the larger trucks Linde will all way's have a problem over 18,000 kg as basically they are the same. To be a true Global company you have to have good sales in all markets like Toyota. NACCO i think 70% of there sales are US based and you might say they are the dominate player over 6,000kg even tho the Linde truck is better. So it goes to show not all way's the best truck in the market leader. ware i think the most important part is , is in the after service you can offer if this is right then you will take more market share. Linde do very well in Germany and France for a reason there after service there is exultant. But they have never in my opinion got this across in the US ware has been pointed out in the past they have a totally different approach. When they are able to crack this then they might stand a better chance but i think it is now to late for this as KION have sold them out.

Davelift - I agree with your statements on the Linde "big lift" trucks. They, IMHO, are just another "Me Too" product with a larger price differential that is hard to justify on paper. The smaller units do have distinctive product differences that can be demonstrated & justified - fuel savings, no service brake issues, PM frequency intervals (actual cost of PM are a bit higher when one follows the Linde recommended services to a T), very low emission levels (one can have lunch by the tail pipe of a running diesel), longer equipment life (which is of less importance when the unit is acquired on a 5 year FMV (you may call rental) as the end user is only paying for equipment "usage".
In the States, Linde has been around since the 70's when they got in bed with Baker but their market presence remains in the single digits - they are viewed and promoted as a niche machine designed for "dirty, mean & nasty" operations. I'm not knocking them in the States, they must be making money on US operations and when a sale type sells one he can make a nice commission and develop a loyal customer base.
Hey, just my 2 cents (or 6 pence) worth.

It's not that i don't like Linde like i have said before Linde tech in Linde hydraulics is up there with the best tech on the market.

the point i'm trying to get across has nothing to do with Linde it's KION who own Linde they have in my opinion sold out a very good company because there two major shareholders don't want to pump more money into the company. The fact that cargo tec have moved there production to Poland and many have moved east how can Linde in a now price driven market claim to charge more for a premium truck when in reality it is not much different.

Linde are now going to struggle the growing markets don't want complicated elect hydraulics they want a basic truck that will do the job at a lower cost. This is why you will see the rise of far eastern manufactures. But this is not just a Linde problem Cargotec, Nacco , SVE Truck , Konecranes, and the others are all going to struggle over the next couple of years

And in the smaller truck market you will see more companies struggle.



On the point of the Linde look a like so any Hydrostatic truck is a Linde copy. The fact that Linde has now moved to a Hydrostatic system that was being used 20 years ago when Linde worked through a gear system so who is copying who

Also over the next five years countries such as the UK Germany Italy France USA are all going to see the Global manufacturing competitiveness drop. While Brazil Vietnam India Spain will all see there competitiveness grow

Davelift, You don't seem to like Linde, do you ?

Just for the record, before the tie up with Daewoo, Cat manufactured trucks in England at their plant in Desford. Full range of c/bal electrics and IC from 1.5t -15t.

As they say, never let the facts stand in the way of a good theory.

Good luck with your Linde look alike.

danniel q from what we have been told Volkswagon are to take over the Almere plant just like Cherry the chinese car manufacture are to take over KION plant in Bari Italy , As for Briggs we have herd this from a number of different sources who all agree that this is deal alll ready done. The TCM Nissan deal with MCFE well we will just have to wait and see but the Japanese now reconise
the fret from Chinese manufactures

Dave, just a couple of points to pick up on statements you've made. Cat's share in MCF is very small these days, and so it is not an issue that fits into the bigger picture of their core businesses.
Nissan and MHI tie up is all but dead. Relationships were strained even in the early days because of the way in which both operate. So while there was joint development of the 1-3.5 ton models in 2004 there has been nothing else past engine and fuel systems since and even then it is all on Nissan.
Nissan bring little to the table, unlike MHI who still design and manufacture engines, transmissions, hydraulic valves, drive axles and electronics.
You mention automotive crossover, but I can assure you that is rather limited, and the only real technologies shared are engines, and even then many are industrial versions rather than straight carry over. The more I think about it the more your statement makes even less sense, because just is not the crossover as you suggest and so economically it is not how you suggest.

Also your theory about Briggs and the MCFE Almere factory is rather amusing and so far off target. A contributing factor maybe, but certainly not the picture you paint it to be, and there are a lot more factors involved in it.

The Global market is changing and the smart manufactures are looking to change with it. Low cost production of China and Brazil and even Eastern Europe will see manufactures move there operations to this area's to try to stay competitive. Large trucks and container handling trucks have been quite profitable for some manufactures over the years. Now new plants are coming on line mainly in China but also in the future Brazil and India European and Scandinavian manufactures are looking to compete and as most use the same components the manufacturing cost are going to be important if companies want to keep market share. People might say the Chinese won't dominate the market to these i say one thing ZMPC now dominate the Ship to shore crane and RTG markets and yes ZMPC are a Chinese company

hyster chassis of big truck and reachstackers are welded in poland at this time such as cargotec i believe ppm

Interesting news that Cargotec are relocating from Sweden to Poland.

How long will it before they totally abandon their natural homeland? Has there ever been a lift truck company that has totally uprooted itself and relocated in it's entirity into another country? If not, kalmar are on the edge of being the first.

With Kalmar looking to produce container handling equipment in Poland to make them competitive in the market , does this spell the end for Linde big trucks in the UK and where does this leave Hyster in Holland

From what i understand if you want to do well in a area you need a manufacturing facility there , This might be one reason why some eropean manufactures have not done a well in North America. Chinese companies are now starting to realize this as well Sany have a manufacturing facility in North america. HC with the type up with NACCO and in future Briggs will also do well in the North American market against Clark who will lose market share.

The manitou HC deal has effected Toyota in france europes second largest market this will also effect Linde with the Fenwick brand as manitou are the leading French brand.

The NACCO Briggs tie up will be done next year and HC will become part of this.In the future Chinese manufactures will become more integrated with some of the construction Companies offering other Chines manufactures machines and some staying more local.

From what i have herd the KION Baoli deal has not done very well and i can see Voltas using the old OM trucks in India.


It will take time but in the short term there will defiantly be more companies coming together over the next couple of years.

Companies Like Cargotec who control the container handling market we see their sale shrink as more competition will see lower prices how cargotec will deal with this has yet to be seen. The NACCO deal will see Hyster move out of small truck to concentrate on large trucks and container handling trucks and Yale take over small trucks and warehouse equipment.

As far as China entering the market- they will have an uphill battle. Anything made in China has a bad rep in the US. Everything from TV's to clothing, when it's made it China- it signifies one thing- cheap- in every sense of the word. This may be an unfair stigma, but it's one most Americans share & one China will have to overcome.

Clark learned this lesson when they moved their manufacturing to Korea. Even with Clark's extensive dealer network, their trucks from that era were less that spectacular. It's no wonder that they're now #14. Again- they're fighting an uphill battle.

If China is to compete, the trucks they sell will have to be less expensive & of better quality than the trucks on the market today. On top of that, a dealer network will have to be put in place & millions in replacement parts will have to be in inventory in this country- not China.

This is how Toyota got to be in the position they enjoy now. Unfortunately, their prices are not so competitive & their quality isn't what it used to be. Time will tell if Toyota will do what it takes to keep their #1 spot.

Rumours and speculation is something that is not true. The fact that A shandong company the day after they said this purchased 70% of Kion Hydraulics (Linde Hydraulics) and 25% of KION Group was not a rumour or speculation it was proven to be true. I don't know what forklift action asked KION but i could guess that is was something like. But i don't geuss i only say what i know is true.

Like i have said earlier the market is set to see a change that has not been seen since the Japanese companies started to come into the market in the 70's. This time it is the Chinese who are to enter the market.


A company that proves this fact is Clark. In the 60's and 70's Clark was a top global forklift manufacturer then came the Japanese into the US market mainly through Toyota Now 30 or 40 years down the line Toyota are the leading company and Clark are not in the top ten in fact they are number 14.


Each market has there own leading companies Europe you have Linde and Junghienrich with Toyota , North America you have Yale, Crown , Cat ,Toyota , Asia you have Mitsi ,Nissan , Komatsu. Now you have the Chinese looking to be part of this buy first buying the technology they need to compete with the top manufactures. Then buy offer this technology at a very competitive price with good service back up.





Clark now seem to be trying to fight back against Toyota with there court case against Toyota in the US , Wonder how this will work out it can't be good for either Clark or Toyota to have there dealer negotiations to come out in open court.
If it proven to be true that Toyota did put pressure on a dealer not to have a competitive brand even in a second company this would change the market and might even change Toyota dealer network. Would they go down the direct way that seems to fathered in Europe.

KION has declined to comment on what it says are "rumours and speculation".

That's not the same as saying "no".