Discussion:
Market slow down

As the market for materials handling equipment slows down to a trickle will we now see more consolidation with forklift OEM's

The materials handling market is now set to slow down by quite a significant figure and many markets including China will see fall of up to 50% on new equipment. Will this slow down see more and more manufactures either looking to sell their materials handling manufacturing business, or will we see companies Like Toyota looking to pick up more brands on the cheap to improve their product offering
  • Posted 17 Nov 2018 21:07
  • Discussion started by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Showing items 1 - 15 of 50 results.
Some just out of college, new hire supervisor who fall victim to a good salesman line of BS. Lets just face it, there are sales people, very talented I might add, Who could sale a freezer to an eskimo in the middle of a blizzard, north of the artic circle then only to return to sale them a refridge with an icemaker. There is a dealer here in north TX who could do it. Not to mention the fact he worked his butt off 70 to 100 hours a week. I still have a lot of respect for the guy.
  • Posted 11 Jan 2019 22:38
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States
In the last post I mentioned how a 7 ton electric forklift with a 90KW lithium iron battery would perform, it would need 2 hours charging per day just to complete a 6 hour shift, if you were to take this against a tesla model S 100D this would have a range of an average of 500km the average weekly travel would be 320KM so the would need charging every 11 days about, 33 times a year. The 7 ton forklift working just six hours a day based on a 5 day week would need charging around 240 times a year, or 7 years' worth of charging compared to the Tesla. This will probably cause major Battery problems after around 3 years.

Now Hyster are to show there 45 ton electric truck soon. Now this truck would need a 480KW Lithium iron battery just to work a six hour shift the charging time depending on how many chargers you use say you had 5 chargers would take 2 hours, but the amount of heat this would generate could quite easily cause a fire. Now Hyster have also said they are looking at hydrogen fuel cell. A truck this size would need a 110Kw Hydrogen fuel cell plus a 110kw battery system and would use around 10kg of hydrogen per hour. A kg of hydrogen is around $5.75 so just to rum the truck would cost $57.5 per hour. Then you will have the vibration of the truck this vibration would damage the fuel cell plates after six month so every six month the complete cell would need a rebuild. The cost of the truck would be between $ 750,000 and $1,000,000

So I was wondering who would want to pay the higher cost of an electric medium or big truck with less productivity and mush higher running costs.
  • Posted 11 Jan 2019 06:52
  • Modified 11 Jan 2019 06:56 by poster
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
LP and diesel power, yep its the way to go. Swap out that tank, fill tank with diesel and go. The total amount of ic powered industrial lift trucks going totally no emissions will not contribute one iota to the climate change model. There are simply not enough units compared to cars. coal power plants, which by the way are used to charge the battery or the hydrogen generators, cows, senators and congressmen and congresswomen, lawyers and other generators of greenhouse gasses that exist in todays world. BTY why does china always seem to get a pass on polluting everything they touch and the the rest of the world does not?
  • Posted 7 Jan 2019 21:58
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States
Hope every body has had a happy holiday period and a good start to the new year.

With the global market slow down gaining more effect, Slowing down in China, Slowing down in North America. When the market pikes up it will be a different market from to days market. Many customers will see sustainability as their biggest driver when looking at new equipment. This can be seen before the slow down when for the first time electric counter balanced forklift out sold diesel counter balance forklifts in the core 2.5 ton - 3.5 tom market. This market will see continued growth when the markets pick back up in 21 / 23. If you were to look at a 3 ton electric forklift that has a lithium iron battery the range could be 8 hours on a 2 hour charge depending on battery size.

The problem for the market is what to do on truck over 6 ton even though it is only a small percentage of overall truck sales but yet offers the most profitability for OEM's Electric trucks won't make a big impact in fact around 90% of trucks sold over 6 ton are still diesel and customers looking for a sustainable solution have a very little choice, in the 6 - 8 ton range you have Toyota, Linde, Hyster , Carer, Kalmar all othering electric trucks from 10 - 16 ton you have Kalmar, Carer Heli and Hangcha offer trucks mainly with lead acid batteries and over 16 ton you have Wiggins offering electric trucks with Lithium iron batteries.

So how will these trucks add up as against there diesel counter part , well in truth not very well. If you were to take a 7 ton forklift with a 90 kw lithium iron battery the range 6 hours then you would need a 2 hour charging time and the amount of electricity put in would be the same amount as 120 normal houses would used in the same 2hours. This askes the question of if a company has a small number of the say jus five they would need the same amount of power to power 600 homes with in the two hour period. This could also cause power surges. Then there is the problem of cooling the batteries normally in a car they won't have to go from empty batteries to full charge every day. The more you charge the batteries the more chance of a fire starting with lithium iron batteries. There are a number of fires daily being reported caused by overheating lithium iron batteries fro phones laptops to even cars.
  • Posted 7 Jan 2019 03:21
  • Modified 7 Jan 2019 06:59 by poster
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Well The Nuvera business is certainly not profitable it must have lost over $100 million in the last four years , And what they paid for Maximal was around $80 Million to much. So really Hyster is looking at a $180 - $200 million right down
  • Posted 27 Dec 2018 06:59
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Don't know how to break it to you but there are some taylor built machines with Toyotas name on them, Just a Toyota branded Toyota. As far as hyster is concerned they are like anyother company that survives in this world type market. change to profitable business model or end up like Sears.
  • Posted 26 Dec 2018 23:15
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States
Customers do like innovative designs that offer a real benefit to them. But above all they want product support - parts, service, technical manuals, training, authorized dealer organization in place to keep them up an running when the machine has a hiccup or two.

One thing the Japanese learned quickly when they came to the US in the late 60's, they weren't going to be successful if they didn't have the product support in place and trained support staff that were from North America.
The Chinese F/L companies were a bit slow at learning this. Recall selling an EP pallet truck - the price was right but the service parts availability was terrible. - the unit need a new controller (under warranty) - not one was in the US - 90 days to get it from over there.- customer will never buy another one. Today EP has aligned them self with the former Big Joe company and now called Big Lift. Now they are getting their act together.
Little electric pallet truck are a dime a dozen but big lift truck are a different story - dealer capability is total different - starting from the service van, spare unit aren't readily available when a unit is down for extended periods (and they will be).
Recall years ago in the 1970s when I was with Allis Chalmers - we had an arrangement with a company called Lancer Boss out of Leighton Buzzard, England , headed up by Sir Neville Bowman Shaw aka Neville the Devil) to market their side loader line & big truck line above 15K via a private label agreement. We sold one of the first 27K side loaders to a company in Houston, Tx called Hyrdril used to handle drill casing pipe in a marshaling yard. The like the machine, so they bought two more over the next 3 years. Then they started to have some issues with the tranny. It was discovered the 3 units all had a different model of transmission one had a different manufacturer. Tech manuals or announcement were never updated/issued to reflect this change. We had on parts on shelf to support these units. Obviously, the user was PO, eventually Lance Boss delivered 3 new transmissions all the same make & model at no cost and paid to have them installed. In the end the customer wasn't really happy due to the time they were down and never bought another side loader again - they went back to a yard crane system.
  • Posted 25 Dec 2018 20:04
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
Hyster are just an example how big companies can fail in one particular market , Like you said some time ago Linde or KION were number 1 , Now Toyota are Number 1.


Customers globally are changing their requirements, They want a sustainable product that is 100% zero emission. Now some people believe that 100% zero emission means 100% electric , but that is not the case as the nearly 80% of the electricity produced to power the trucks create emissions at source of the electric generation, there are other technologies that will allow for 100% zero emission with out the need to use electric generated using emissions or battery charging infrastructure


As the market slows down over the next 18 - 24 month there will be some failures mainly in the many Chinese manufactures or some consolidation in this area. But also in the top 20 forklift OEM's you will see some type of consolidation because the companies that will survive will be the companies that innovate.
  • Posted 25 Dec 2018 03:44
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Hyster started loosing SOM many years ago - when they went from a privately held company headquartered in Danville, Il with big truck produced out of Portland, Oregon to a public company (NACCO take over - Now Hyster-Yale Group). In big trucks they were the leader especially in the lumber & timber industry but others slowly ate away at their market presence as they kept reorganizing. Their dealer organization seems to be changing shirts for a variety of reasons.
As always been said when some one is in the #1 position their next move can only be some number greater than 1. Time changes everything. Linde used to be #1 not so many years ago.
  • Posted 23 Dec 2018 17:29
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
Johnr j As a side note, in my opinion Hyster at one time was a major player in big machines but as time went on they lost market share. In other words the Old gray mare ain't what she used to be. Dose this mean you agree with me that Hyster are not as big as they were in big trucks.

When you mentioned Hoist you forgot to mention the Most Important part the Hoist relationship with Toyota, This will be very important to the North American Market. Host Toyota will take market share in the North American medium to big truck market and the biggest looser will be Hyster, again this will put pressure on the medium to big truck facility in Nijmegen.

Just because Taylor were successful in the past doesn't meant they will be successful in the future, One of the big main areas for future success will be the environmental impact of a Truck in the medium to large truck market, At the moment all the zero emission medium and Big trucks from 7T - 36T are battery powered, either by lead acid or lithium Iron batteries, The problem for these is quite simple they all need charging and cooling if you were to look at trucks from 10T- 16T there are now a number of manufactures in this market Kalmar, Carer , Heli,Hangcha, Montini, These mainly all use lead acid battery technology so if you are working a multi shift system you would need spare batteries and charging infrastructure. Over 16T you have Wiggins they use the Thor Truck battery system this is an Lithium iron battery system that would need at least 3 hours charging for an 8 hour shift. Also cooling the battery might have some issues.


This now leaves us with the third alternative Hydrogen fuel cell technology. Toyota would probably be the most experienced company in the materials handling industry with Hydrogen. The point they have not been looking at hydrogen in medium and big trucks goes a long way in saying Hydrogen has to many issues to enter this market. 1 The cost of the truck will make they just to expensive for big Trucks, 2 The cost of the infrastructure for refueling will also be to expensive, 3 At $5.00 per kg and a fuel consumption of around 8 - 16 kg Per Hour depending on truck size fuel cost would be much greater.4 Then there is the problem with Vibration of the truck and the damage this will do to the fuel cell meaning the fuel cell would need a total rebuild ever 18 - 24 month.

Hyster has wasted quite a large amount of money of Hydrogen maybe over $100 Million this is one of the reasons I believe they will be in trouble over the next number of years.
  • Posted 23 Dec 2018 05:56
  • Modified 23 Dec 2018 06:01 by poster
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
@triumphrider
LMAO at you last comment. Beam me up Scottie.

I read a lot what is being said by exhalt but there are two key players in the US that exhalt never comments on - Taylor Machine Works or Hoist. As a side note, in my opinion Hyster at one time was a major player in big machines but as time went on they lost market share. In other words the Old gray mare ain't what she used to be.
Taylor has long been recognized in North America as the leading big truck manufacturer (15K & above). Their sales activity has never been reported in the ITA statistics. Only SWAG on how many they move out each year. But there are tons of Big Reds running around in various lumber operations to ports activities in N. A. and other parts of the world.
Hoist seems to have made great strides in large capacity truck as well with some innovative designs in recent year and solid reputation.
Don't know much about them so much but just what I read. Sounds like another "Southside of Chicago Boy Makes Good" story with a lot of BST (Blood Sweat & Tears - used to run the Rush/State Street scene back in the '68/69 time period)
  • Posted 21 Dec 2018 23:28
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
My transporter beam is going to be 100% zero emission. I just need some time to perfect it. BTW the beam itself is 0 emission. the power source is a different story all together.
  • Posted 20 Dec 2018 22:06
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States
In connection with China undercutting our prices, We have confidence to believe that by 2021 we would have delivered over 25 Reach Stackers, 48 Empty Container Handling forklifts and over 300 General purpose forklifts from 6,000kg - 18,000kg all being 100% zero emission
  • Posted 20 Dec 2018 06:18
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
No I have never worked for Hyster, when we said about Linde I was a former Linde employee who had a grudge now I'm a former Hyster employee

I believe its is an Scandinavian company that's looking at an option on our company. So will I be a former employee of a Scandinavian company next
  • Posted 20 Dec 2018 04:00
  • Modified 20 Dec 2018 04:02 by poster
  • Reply by exalt
  • Dubai, United Arab Emirates
BY the way, the Chinese will undercut your pricing to the point where you will probably gladly sell your all your technology to them.
  • Posted 19 Dec 2018 22:01
  • Reply by triumphrider
  • Texas, United States

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