Swoop

ty for taking time to post your comment, agree with most of what you have to say. Travel tilt is manly used on slopes uneven floor speed bumps and as mentioned in the previous post railway lines, although I've never come across a situation where a FLT has to travel over railways lines.Now if a pedestrian was to walk close next to the forks on a FLT they only have themselves to blame if their legs ankles or whatever comes into contact with the FLT

I know that if you're out in the paved yard area, and you're a hot dog operator who drives too fast, the forks should be tilted back if you try to cross railroad tracks...... They needed new forks and carriage rollers. The operator slowed down and was more alert afterwards, too. :-)

you know...
i'm really curious how the statistics came about on this ankle injury v/s fork tilt angle point that keeps being mentioned.
How many people had to get ran over (hit in the ankle) before you got a valid statistic?
Seriously there would have had to be several incidents happen in different ways to gain these said stats, where there test subjects? Did they use crash test dummies? Does this happen enough to warranty a specific study on this particular point on injuries to specific body parts from forklift impacts? And what are the study results specifically? (not just a general generalization).
Did you do a nationwide search in every hospital and business for ankle & leg injuries from forklift impacts? Was this general information provided by OSHA in a study?
I'm really curious how many people injured this fact was derived from.
I've been in this industry since 1977 and have seen alot of accidents resulting in all sorts of injuries and even death but this ankle/leg injury from fork impacts i may have only seen a couple of times in my whole career.
And to be honest in all these years and all the safety training classes i've taken, injuries from lifttruck accidents were just generalized and not compartmentalized to specific body parts involved in the accident.
As far as how to travel with the forks positioned or even with the lift being stationary the only points that were given in any of these training classes were :
- empty forks while traveling = low to the ground a couple inches off the floor even/level
- loaded forks while traveling or stationary = tilted back
- forklift parked = forks on the ground with mast tilted forward

these were always the 3 key points that were always given in any of these classes i've taken over the years, they were all from hyster, caterpillar and yale and even through all the management changes and repeated retraining over the years these points were always given and no specific points were changed as far as i remember.
This new method of traveling with forkes tilted up even when empty is something i've never heard of, this discussion is the first time i've ever seen it and makes me think someone is trying to reinvent the wheel here or maybe it is just the difference between European standards and US standards.
And yes i do believe there is a difference, i see it fairly regularly in these discussions on this forum and other venue's as well.

My own personal/professional opinion as to how an operator should travel with forks positioned? they should be level to the floor and low to the floor and tilted slightly forward when unloaded.
when carrying a load always tilted back.

As for injury statistics and trying to change a standard on how forks are positioned, personally i don't think it really matters how they are set, if someone gets hit it will permanently mangle them for life period no matter how the forks are positioned and arguing over the extent of the injury and trying to use that to prove a point or institute a new rule is ludicrous and just plainly nit picking.
Instead of focusing on how an operator carries his forks up or down and beating that horse to death, i think if a plant has issues with injuries and forklifts or are trying to set rules in place to prevent such a thing they should be concentrating on employee safety and how they conduct themselves in the production traffic areas. Wear the appropriate PPE so they can be seen by forklift operators and be especially aware of where the forklifts are around them at all times. Yes the forklift operator is supposed to watch out for pedestrians also but i think it would be safe to say that the majority of accidents/injuries that occur are from the pedestrian being somewhere he/she is not supposed to be and not paying attention of their surroundings putting themselves in harms way. Forklifts cannot stop on a dime and anyone with any common sense knows this.
In the real world pedestrians have the 'right of way' on the road no matter what. In the industrial world pedestrians have a 'right of way' but in most cases all the signage i've ever seen gives the forklift traffic the 'right of way'. It is the employees responsibility to 'watch out for forklift traffic'. If an employee steps out in front of a forklift i don't care how the forks are positioned, it WILL hurt them badly and i do not think it would make much difference whether they are positioned up or down unless the employer is letting the insurance company dictate how the lift is operated based on the extent of an injury based on how it impacts a person and the extent of the injury it can cause. If this is the case then all the OSHA studies and surveys and stats wouldn't mean a thing now would it?

ok i think i've said enough and even managed to throw a new ball into the court...
lets see how this discussion turns now ;o)

Joe, I love the line "what's the best tilt angle to hit a pedestrian"?
thanks

Thanks again for your replies. I would have never of thought that this issue would create all this interest.

I would like to make it clear. When I am training I apply the same standards like everyone else in this thread including the use of travel tilt. This is because I'm covering myself and ensuring that the trainee has the knowledge of the possible hazards in their environment.

All I'm saying if the floor is level,no slopes/inclines,no kerbs etc etc do I stop a FLT driver for not using travel tilt and explain that the reason that you need too is -

That`s how you where trained.
Because it is good practice.
Because of floor hazards although there arn`t any.
Because you can repair a leg bone easier than an ankle bone.

I hate to disappoint you all but there is a training world and a real world I have seen both sides. FLT drivers are constantly under pressure to achieve their targets. If you all really think that FLT operators drive to how they have been tested you need to take your blinkers off.
Apply the tilt and taking it off when you are moving over a hundred pallets per shift takes time. I always drive to test standard and yes always use the travel tilt but will never keep up to speed with another driver.

I think Edward brings up the key point when he alludes to the issue of " independently verifiable statistics" to demonstrate a point at hand. In fact, if simple and valid studies were conducted by forklift trainers to justify the operator performance standards they use, all of the heated discussion about "fork tilt"/tilt-up/tilt-down/what's the best tilt angle to hit a pedestrian/ would be mute.

I know well the current USA powered industrial truck operator training rules; having testified as an expert witness at the Washington, DC hearing that resulted in it. The study I offered was sited (Federal Register) as 1 of the 2 studies used to justify the new rule's promulgation (The other was conducted by the US government's NIOSH unit). My study, associated statistics, and testimony are available in the public domain.

My point? Everyone is best-served if you both observe ALL government standards that are required, AND do your own simple study, on behalf of your employer/client. In the USA, OSHA demands compliance with all training topics listed, but allows you to disregard those an employer can demonstrate are not applicable.

For over 20 years, ALL of the instructional designs, tests, learning plans, and truck/industry specific programs that have come out of the LIFTOR process, have been beyond reproach. And, yes, Edward, I have studied forklift operating at my client locations in such detail that I have over 3000 validated on-truck test results dealing with "fork tilt"; when, how much,and under what conditions.

Finally, early in my career, clients asked me to perform detailed, validated studies of forklift training effectiveness in their various locations. I have not even scratched the surface yet on what their is to learn! I recommend that ALL Forklift Operator trainers start collecting data for their own studies on behalf of employer/clients. Stop making Sh*t up! LIFTOR.com is being designed just for that purpose. So, go there and sign-up for the free stuff. Join as a paying member/or not. Learn how to do it and make a difference. Eventually, the answers to fork tilt, and other similar operating standards will be resolved...and you won't even have to refer to the government standards to know you are doing the right thing.

Best wishes,

Joe

Edward- Quite bemused at such a response that would question safe practices. Not personally come across such a contradiction in training methods.

Are you permitted to swap and change you training standards as and when it suits in the US? I don't believe that to be the case but I could be wrong. Seems that you personally went into that business with one intent, which was indeed to teach using forks tilted backwards, then changed your mind to suit and fit the customer. I'm not accustomed to a customer dictating my training standards.

I have no reason to doubt that the business you refer to is so insistent on travelling with their forks tilted forward. Odd, but it is a funny old world. Could you possibly divulge that business name so that I could check your 16 year safety record and verify that they do indeed insist on travelling with forks tilted forward. Never come across such a deep seated feeling within any business before and you rely upon it so much to bolster your argument that I think it needs verifying. 16 years without an accident and all down to forks being forward. Remarkable. I think we need to reassess our training standards here. wow.

Seriously - You want medical proof that an ankle is more difficult to treat than a leg injury? I very much doubt that you would be convinced in whatever was shown to you. Is it not enough for you to simply accept that tilting the forks back is a simple process that takes milliseconds and really doesn't need debating to this degree.

Cheers

Jonah

Jason - Nothing personal intended. Simply replying to your question on an open forum. I responded using the current training standards in use for all instructors in the UK who operate under UK Health & Safety 1974, PUWER 1998, LOLER 1998, ACOP L117, MHASAWA 1999 and the Corporate Manslaughter Act 2008.

Those of us who are accredited instructors through one of the 6 accrediting bodies and who operate under that accreditation do certainly instruct all our students to operate in that manner and using those techniques. Our training is invalid if we don't. This forks issue is not open for interpretation here in the UK. If you travel with your forks in a manner that you have not been trained and have an accident that is reportable then you could be liable to prosecution under UK H&S law. Simple. Forks tilted back here!

I see little point in labouring over something that to most would appear to be very good practice and one that prevents more issues than it raises.

I'm not certain to what training standards or instructional manuals you follow. Mine are clear and serve me very well. You asked a question. I responded with current training practices that have been used for in excess of 20 years. If you disagree so strongly with those then perhaps you could take it up with ITSSAR, RTITB, AITT, NPORS and the HSE and HSC in the UK. Im sure they'd like to here what you have to say.

Cheers

Jonah

I have had a customer that is a manufacturer, and a division of a fortune 500 corporation, with over 200 employees and over 60 forklifts in an air-conditioned enclosed plant.
They have an over _16_ -year- safety record without _ANY_ accidents involving forklifts. Their standard says they travel, when unladen, with the fork -tips- 6 to 9 inches off the floor, tilted forward. I taught operator safety for them, and was told I was incorrect to insist on them travelling with the forks tilted up, and with that kind of safety record, I don't see how anyone could insist they do anything different.
Their 6 year old forklifts, when traded in, look like new forklifts that have sat in the corner they have so little scratched paint.
I do recognize that in a lot of operations they would have had injuries and damage from people driving with the forks not tilted back, but their methods of employee satisfaction are not the same as in those locations, and everyone in their plant intends to be long term employees and shows genuine concern for their fellow employees.
I am also aware of major trucking companies who for a very long time insisted on travel unladen with the forks tiled down, as their logic was that they would be less likely to have a problem with pedestrian impacts. as far as I know, those trucking companies have changed to match the "industry standard" of tilted back travel always.
one size may not fit all,,, after all.
I would also ask Jonah who claims " It is far easier to repair a damaged shin/leg bone than it is to repair a damaged ankle/tendons/Achilles heel", if he is making assumptions, or does he actually have independently verifiable statistics to back up his claim, and/or is he a orthopaedic surgeon?

Thank you for spending time to write your lengthy reply even though I find that some of you comments are belittling and also not applicable.
Once more our warehouse floor is level and smooth, no cables or kerbs. On my last Instructors refresh I was told not to speak about injuries to legs ankles etc we are not medical professionals and plainly don't drive close to pedestrians. Yes I am an Instructor and have been for many years thank you. I'm sure Jonah If you drive you drive your car safely of do you drive your car the way you have been trained and tested or do you apply some common sense.

So lets look how the practical test sheet was constructed.

A group of senior Instructors/assessors that have looked at every aspect of driving/operating FLT. Looking at every hazard that could occur in a working environment. To cover us the Instructors. Isnt the operator allowed to apply some commonsense to his working environment ?

But thanks again for your view but please refrain from getting personal.

Regards Jason..

A number of reasons for this. Firstly, it is never a wrong thing to follow good practice and keep to the same good habits.

Travelling with the forks tilted slightly back is always going to be the safest method of travel, regardless of being laden or unladen. So get into the habit of doing it regardless of what the neighsayers think.

We already know that applying sufficient stabilising back tilt when carrying a load not only helps stabilise the load and the truck but it also ensures that the load centre or centre of gravity of the load is reduced which stabilises the truck further. A good thing.

Applying back tilt when un-laden (your op question) serves a number of purposes. It keeps us in good practice for carrying loads. It also sets the forks into a safer position to allow for any sudden changes or variations in the ground or terrain and therefore reduces the chances of your fork tips digging into the ground or contacting hazardous objects such as kerbs etc and throwing you through the mast! Not a good thing!

From a general safety point of view, the positioning of the fork tips in relation to a pedestrian's body can be crucial in case of impact. With the forks tilted forward or level during travel, you are likely to hit a pedestrian in the ankle area. With the fork tips tilted slightly backwards you are more likely to hit a pedestrian higher and in the shin or leg bones. It is far easier to repair a damaged shin/leg bone than it is to repair a damaged ankle/tendons/achiles heel etc. Crippled for life time!

We could also add that in the majority of material handling environments that we find low lying electrical items such as sockets and cables as well as pipework for water and gas. These are usually situated at or around ankle height too. I'd try whatever was needed to avoid touching those with a large chunk of steel pointed steel.

So, when you get back to work simply ask your colleagues if they would rather spend 8 weeks in plaster with a broken leg or a lifetime in a wheel chair with facial plastic surgery?

Never ceases to amaze me the discussions and opinions operators have over the slightest of issues. If someone has an issue over something as mundane as adding a little more back tilt when travelling un-laden then perhaps they shouldn't be operating a truck and should be attending the latest mothers meeting instead!

What surprises me even more is that the OP says in his sig that he is an ITSSAR FLT Instructor? This is basic stuff. Should know better!

Hope that answers your question on why we need to apply back tilt when un-laden.

I wouldn't mind betting that your colleagues also argue about wearing a seat belt or the need to wear rubber gloves when checking/topping up the acid levels. Perhaps they also disagree with selecting neutral and applying the handbrake before using the hydraulics?

Cheers

Jonah

When you do your test you are told to tilt back when travelling the thought behind this is if you hit a kerb forks will slide up in practice im not to sure

Thanks Richard that makes good sense..

To travel lift tilt up is a good practice. The operators will always do this when travelling with or without load and they will never forget whether there is a load or without.

Thanks for your replies,

Had to check my original post. My query as above having to use travel tilt when unladen which means without a load. As above I understand if you have a load as I have mentioned above.

The operators find it even easier when the reach truck has auto levelling fitted, auto centring sideshift is a bonus to.

It doesn't really bother me how the operators drive the truck, they normally forget all the good practices they learn once they have been passed ok to operate the truck.

If the operator doesn't want to tilt the forks back then if they loose the load they can clear the mess up afterwards.

alot of accidents on lift trucks are due to operators not carrying the load correctly. I can only assume the mfg is just trying to idiot proof the situation forcing the operator to tilt back to insure load stability.

Is it that difficult to drive with forks tilted back?
it only requires a predetermined decision by the operator to decide when he is going to have to level the forks when approaching a pallet or load. That is not that difficult. And it makes him tilt back after grabbing the load to insure safe load carrying.

Hope this explains it
Anyone else have an opinion? ;o)