I think BB forks is right when it comes down to the after service in part, but you can have a small local service company that many people on here work for and will agree gives a much better service than given credit for. On the quality issue of the chines trucks is this really the issue or is this just a opportunity to knock the Chinese brands. If you look at all manufactures they all source there casting's from China on IC counter balance truck. Not sure about Crown but the rest do. So if a axle made in China is good enough on say one of the big name trucks then it should be the same on the offer manufactures trucks. Again in industry there is no such thing as a premium product are CAT wheel loaders a premium product Are Hitachi excavators a premium product, Are JCB back hoes a premium product. No they are a product that does a good job. any company can fit a engine that gives 1000 hours oil service life and company can fit hydrostatic transmissions that will use only 50% of engine rated power. The majority of companies use the same part in all their trucks but yet some seem to call them selfs premium because they claim to have a better name.. The markets are going to change in a big way over the next five years. companies like Sany and Heli will become global brands. Kalmar now produce their products in Poland does and Sany in Germany this does not mean Kalmar is now a poor brand and Sany is a better brand.

Customers are now waking up to the fact that they have a choice and are looking for a better solution because all forklifts are only clones of the original Clark designed product that were developed way back in 1917 nearly 100 years ago


as for the Middle east sheikhs having gold plated trucks , the Middle east is probably the most harsh environment industrial equipment will have to work in yet they don't pay a premium for there equipment and most of the major brands don't sell well their. So if a truck can work well in this environment they can work well any were.

I believe we're seeing the second wave of "imports" since Toyota & Nissan entered the market in the late '70's. I don't know the pricing of that era but I do know that the established brands in my area (Hyster, Yale & Clark) were much more expensive machines during that period. More & more folks were taking a chance on the "new" imports & they did indeed prove themselves worthy. By the late '80's- early '90's- the big 3 had to change their thinking to stay in the game, mimicking the imports in many ways -off shore assembly, more sourcing of modified auto parts, etc.

Now the choices have become either a brand which will give good service w/ good dealer support, with it's higher associated cost or take a chance on a lower priced unit- which- in the long run- does prove itself to be junk.

Dear Daveilift

I cannot agree with you.
The expression "luxury" applies to the commercial products, not the industrial machines.
Luxury, besides good feeling (maybe) and some prestige (sometimes, maybe) gives you nothing usefull for operation.

For 25 years of activity in forklift bussiness, I never met a "luxury truck". Perhaps some Arab sheiks have some forklifts with the platinium forks and quadro audio in the cabin, but even here it's rather for fun.
Of course, you can put a VW engine into Heli, but still you will have the steering axle, which will fall apart every 6 months.
Premium truck means better materials, better design, longer lifetime, operational savings.
It matters if your engine uses 50 or 80% of its rated power.
It matters if you have to change the filters and oils every 250 hours or 1000 hours.
This requires highest shelf engineering skills, top shelf materials and thousands hours of testing.

One more issue.
Luxury, ex definition, is elite, rare and presumed only for the few who can afford it.
It would be the first time in the economy history (I think) when the luxury stuff (like Linde, Hyster, Jungheinrich or Crown) dominated the market.

In industry their is no such thing as a premium product in live there are luxury products not premium. a Rolls Royce car is a luxury product , A Hubolt watch is a luxury product. First class with emirates airline is a luxury product. if Heli was to manufacture a forklift for the European market with a VW engine and a Bosch hydrostatic Transmission and fly by wire controls would this be classed as a premium product. Any company by these means can produce a premium product but who says what is a premium product. Are VW, Cummings , Perkins, Kabuta , Deutz,Volvo premium product. If yes then are Clark Forklifts that use Deutz engines premium products , or Heli that use a Volvo engine premium products. The word premium in all these cases are to say to the customer you can have the same components as our competitors trucks but our name is one of the big names so you pay more because we claim we are superior to the rest. But are they really worth the extra money

I think Raytec and BB forks are both wright in there own way. First what the main difference might be is the area the sale happens in , if you take North America were European brands like Linde and Junghienrich are not very strong and companies like Totota and Hyster are Then Europe ware it is the other way around Linde and Junghienrich are much stronger here 75% of Linde turnover in Europe 65% of Hyster turnover in North America. In North America there seems be be more of a liking for mechanical controlled products and what seems important is moving the product around. In Europe there seem to be more electronically controlled and what seems important is driver comfort. Now all these product can be classed as premium products but the main question is can they move more pallets equipment ect than say a Doosan , hyundai, Taylor or any of the Chinese products.

The forklift markets customers are now changing and wanting more. Its like i pointed out in a recent interview the forklift market is ware the mobile phone market was 7 or 8 years ago. Then the likes of Apple Samsung HTC came in and changed the customer expectations. Then the likes of Nokia Blackberry lost out.

The next question will be who will be the Apples and who will be the blackberries

OK, first things, first.
2-digits EBITA may mean 10 or 90%.
I think it's closer to 10,maybe 13% which is nothing special, when you consider the fact that EBITA is the profit before the indexation and tax.
So the net profit may be on the level of 7-10%.
I can't see any extreme greed here.

Concerning the premium product prices.
Premium quality it's not just a sexy design.
It's a lifetime, ergonomy, operation costs, endurance etc.
All theese factors are worth some money. And they cost some money.
When you put highest quality leaf chains on the mast, you have 3-4 years of peace before they extend. When you put some lousy stuff there, you must replace it every year.

My grandfather always purchased the expensive shoes from the best shoemaker in his town. And he always said, that he's too poor to buy the cheap shoes.

Kion is right when referring to the changes in market share. Cell Phone companies are a good example. Who could have imagined an APP for cell phones could take down the TAXI industry in major cities across the world? All industries are reeling from high operating prices and fewer sales. They will buy cheaper just to survive. Service will be an issue but NOT the deciding factor. I see the company I work for is changing, for the worse. Service is taking a back door, as manager's are saying no, more and more to customer demands.

There are 2 distinct different markets this thread's discussing & each one has it's own set of rules

1) "If you won 35 million" is discussing the retail market & therefore has to play the game of retail marketing. Are there differences between a Mercedes & a Ford- absolutely- but if you watch the ads for both cars you'll find the "feeling" of buying a Mercedes is what motivates the buyer to make the purchase. A sign of prestige, having wealth, etc, is what sells Mercedes. My local Mercedes dealer has their showroom set up like the streets of Venice (water canals & all), you can have wine & cheese, etc while your car is serviced & you become a "member" of the dealership having almost the same "feeling" of being a member of a country club.

2) there are no "feelings of prestige, etc" when buying a piece of equipment. In my experience, the buyer wants either of 2 things- inexpensive purchase price (with the hope that higher repair bills & downtime will be limited) or absolutely the lowest cost of repairs & downtime (with the associated higher purchase price).

When the customer is willing to pay a premium for limited downtime- then the question becomes- which brand will give me the best bang for my buck? If a higher priced machine promises the best service life, the least downtime & reasonable parts costs & availability, then, if that's what the customer wants, then the purchase will be made. Following up on the promise is key & where most fail.

?don't you mean [?there is an implied?] Because " we want to believe" there is some thing different happens when you /buy a quality product/ "spend more money for something".

I think you are all looking at this from the wrong direction. E.G. if you won the lottery and get 85 million. yes you could buy an escort or an astra or a sportage or an other reasonably priced car. but you wont you will buy a rolls or a merc or a bmw.
Because there is some thing different happens when you buy a quaility product.

I get asked the same question every time I meet people and really I'm nether Sure of the answer.

I think you might off answer that

here are a couple of quotes i have picked up from Apple

the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do


to develop not mirely modest product advances based on customer focus groups but whole new machines and services that customers did not know they needed

here are a couple of quotes i have picked up from Apple

the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do


to develop not mirely modest product advances based on customer focus groups but whole new machines and services that customers did not know they needed

Dp world just opend the deepest port on the Thames first time I've heard of them

Dp world just opend the deepest port on the Thames first time I've heard of them