Hi Randal,

Believe it's a company from Toronto. He has been here more than once. I guess ur hotel rates are cheaper because from my understanding, the charge here is 600.00. They apparently get quite a crowd, and dampens our business in our city.

Wonder if he does the same in his hometown or just jeopardizes the lives of others in other cities.

Don't know what we can do to stop him. No authority to talk to

Hi Dan

I was flabergasted to learn that there is an Ontario company coming to a Hotel in Nova Scotia and is going to provide Train the Trainer for $400 YES FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS for one day with a certificate. I suggested to the small business owner that if a deal sounds to good to be true than it is to good to be true.
I would recommend to anyone looking to shave a buck off the backs of their employees WIDOWS then the first reading they should do is get a Lawyers interpertation of a wonderful piece of Canadian law often refered to as the DUE DILIGACE REGULATIONS, after which if you are prepared to spend (in NS) up to 2 years less a day and/or $250,000 fine then you should consider a life at the Craps table in Vagas not in the Boardroom of a Business operating industrial lift trucks.

And to think that the new guidelines supersede the old. I would presume that law firms would follow the latest.

As far as I am concerned, all of it means nothing if employers only contract out the cheapest, and who will do it the quickest. With no accreditation by the provincial or federal departments, the monkeys are running the zoo. This king ape will stick to his guns and continue to provide the finest possible training, for however long it takes, at a competitive price, until this industry puts me out of business.

British Columbia, Canada, has adopted the Canadian Standards Association B335-94: Industrial Lift Truck Operator Training as part of their Occupational Health and Safety Regulations. The following statement is from WorkSafeBC.

Google: worksafebc.com/Topics/CertificationTraining/Training.asp?ReportID=35450

"Training Forklift Operator

Forklift operator certification is not required in BC. Operators are expected to be trained to a CSA (national) standard.

The employer is responsible for ensuring that a trainee completes training and testing to meet the performance criteria set out in the standard before the person is assigned tasks as a lift truck (forklift) operator.

The standard for forklift operators is CSA Standard B335-94, Industrial Lift Truck Operator Training. The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) has developed a pilot web site that provides access to CSA Standards referenced in federal, provincial, and territorial OHS Regulations. The project is funded by the CSA, WorkSafeBC, and health and safety partners across Canada. View the CSA standards online."

Training may be obtained from a third-party provider; however, it is the employer's obligation to ensure that the training is consistent with the requirements of the CSA standard."

To view online CSA forklift standards referenced in Canadian OHS regulations -

Google: ohsviewaccess.csa.ca/.

Canadian Standards Association: B335-94, Industrial Lift Truck Operator Training.

Canadian Standards Association: B335-04. Safety Standard for Lift Trucks.

It is interesting to note that the current second biggest seller of the Canadian Standards Association Occupational Health and Safety Standards is CSA B335-94, Industrial Lift Truck Operator Training. I wish it were the updated CSA B335-04, Safety Standard for Lift Trucks which is more detailed and has more stringent training and trainer requirements.

Ditto

I do not believe there are any standards, anywhere, when it comes to training. Anybody does what they want, and should something happen, then the powers to be get involved. Kind of being reactive, instead of proactive. Makes no sense to me, especially when there are laws governing this industry, but nothing is being done or should I say, enforced.

And to beat the band, I visited a company for the first time, knocking on doors, and the supervisor says to me 'meet or in-house trainer'. Seemed like a fine chap and I questioned his course. It was held at a local motel/hotel, and lasted from 8AM-3PM. Driving was not part of it, and he learned about propane as well. They did a bit of role playing, here is your book, give me your cheque, and you are now certified to be a trainer. Need I say more?

I have little exposure to what is required in Cananda, so I can't even begin to comment on what might or might not be acceptable up there. In the U.S. OSHA put very little definition behind what constitutes acceptable training for trainers. I wish they had done more along those lines, maybe even going to the point of requiring certified trainers. That was actually discussed and was shot down during the standards rewrite of the late 1990's.

Here is where I see the real problem lies in terms of duration and pricing in the U.S. First of all, the U.S. standard does not say that trainers must even attend a trainer's class. Personally, I think it would be foolish for companies to think no education for a trainer is a good move and most companies train their trainers in some way, but I have also seen companies trying to sell videos say that Train the trainer is some type of "myth" in efforts to sell video kits in place, instead of in addition to, a trainer's class. In theory, could a safety person or forklift operator educate themselves to a trainers level on their own with persistance, time, reading, practice, etc. likely so, but people don't invest that kind of time on their own these days, so having a pro do it for them is a good move.

The next issue, and the one that creates the duration and pricing issue is this. What is to be covered during the trainer's class? Are their any prerequisites to attending the class, how complex is the customers application and units and so on. I would assume most all trainers classes cover the OSHA standard basics, but what is covered past that? Things that will make the time and cost vary widely would be:

Is the trainer expecting to be certified during the class as an operator, if so on how many different types of equipment?

Are the trainers expecting training on public speaking, how to educate adult learners, how to keep the attention of a class, how to be properly organized, etc?

Are the trainers getting information on risk management and legal issues and how to avoid problems.

Are the ANSI/ITSDF standards required reading and discussed.

And the list goes on and on. I think setting one time frame and saying "this is it" for every customer and every application is likley too rigid, you have to find a balance between what the customer wants and want they can afford, in today's marketplace that is the hard truth. I commonly see dealers Train the trainer classes last only one short day, on the other hand I rarely see them exceed three days in my part of the country. In my opinion, providing an outline to a customer during your quote is important, as well as listing any prerequisites to attending class, that way they know what they are getting day to day in terms of topics and who might not be even qualified to attend. Also putting together a comparision between what you do what your competitors typically offer can be helpful.

The winning bid was submitted by an independent like myself. I have only come across him a couple of times, and both times I have heard from students that his training was a sham, and nowhere near the quality that I provide.

Joe, I would tend to believe that five full days of TTT goes well beyond the regulations while analyzing their ability to actually train their staff. One and a half days doesn't even begin to talk about much other than the reasons why they are participating, So it goes!

To extrapolate from the few responses to dan's thread, I would conclude the following:

1. The expectations for what constitutes a Forklift Instructor varies widely among both trainers and client companies.

2. The predominant expectation of employers and most trainers is that the TTT meets government regulations.

3. Dealerships provide training services that meet government regulations, relieves some forms of liability for themselves and their customer, and the training they offer helps to sell equipment and parts; the key purpose for which they are in business.

4. Because of the economic barriers built into the dealer-company relationship, independent training companies have a difficult go-of-it, because they make most of their money from training, NOT selling machines.

5. If independent trainers are to relieve themselves of the frustrations, perhaps they are well-served to start "changing the game". Having quality standards that go beyond "regulations" might be the answer. I think the ANSI/ASSE Z490.1, 2009 training standards.... agrees on that matter. But, do you?

Best wishes,

Joe

I have attended 6 different TTT classes over the years. All of these classes were 3 day. Most offered by fork vendors. The impetus for my instructors and I to attend these classes have been to deflect liability and provide proof of qualifications. From the employer's point of view, It really comes down to compliance for the company.
In the depositions I have been to, the attorneys wanted to see the curriculum that the student got from the class, videos etcetera. And then they wanted to see the curriculum I received at my various TTT classes. Documentation goes a long way. We have been fortunate to have the number of hours worked with few accidents.
I have seen online TTT programs that claim the requirements for instructors is somewhat less now than in the past, so if the company's loss prevention dept believes what they read online they can save$.

I quoted 5 days training up to 4 staff on the 4 classes of forklifts outlined above. A forklift dealer quoted 4 days up to three people, for just a few dollars less. And the winning contract.....are you ready for this?, are you sitting down?.....
ONE and a HALF DAYS! You heard it right, boys, 1 1/2 days.!

To me, this is a sham! The trainer must be extremely incompetent to have submitted a proposal with so little time, and the company so shallow for accepting such an offer!

I am not quite sure as to what is going on with this industry, but it disgusts me knowing that this will be taking place in the very near future. This TTT is totally unacceptable in our industry standards, and both parties must be held accountable for this 'in and out' train the trainer training.

What the h#ll is going on here? Who allowed this guy to even become a trainer himself? Does he think he is training WHIMS? How do you train three individuals in 1.5 days to become trainers when it takes me two full days at least, to train operators on the same four lift trucks?

It is criminal and so non-compliant. It is a joke to even think that his offer was even on the table being discussed yet alone be awarded the very same. It is corrupt, and the trainer will take his 2 grand for 1.5 days work, if you want to call it work, to the bank, laughing all the way!

On a side not, another contract was lost to another firm, who had a company's 5 staff walk into class between 11 and 12, and have them all certified before the end of the day. 5 staff, sit-down counterbalance propane powered Clark, 1/2 day training. I take a full day to properly educate the operators, and operate the forklift, to run the trucks as required by law. And, I do not train on 1/2 hour notice either. It takes time to properly prepare for the class.

That is my rant for the day. It was not a good day for me yesterday. I am perplexed as to what is happening in this industry, in my province/city. Makes me want to second guess my career choice and get into something else that may be more regulated properly, and effectively.

No change for me either.

One week minimum and regular checks afterwards.

With the "added variable", I don't believe my answer is going to change. This assumes that the objectives of the company's Train-the-Trainer Program are compatible with those of our National LIFTOR Management & Training System.

Perhaps this idea of having "program objectives" or "program outcomes" needs to be vetted in a separate thread.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Joe

Okay, let me add a variable in here and hopefully you will respond.

The company currently has a Train the Trainer program, and has done so for years. Now they want to have 3 additional staff qualified to train as well. Does this change your answers?

If They already hold the necessary operator certificates and can operate to Instructor standard then we would cover the internal instructor course ( Non Commercial ) in one week.

Hope this helps.