Discussion:
Why hydrogen Fuel cell forklifts will not work

Hydrogen is said to be the clean fuel of the future, but can hydrogen really work as a fuel. The simple and easy answer to this question is NO. Hydrogen will never work as a cost effective fuel in any industry be it transportation Industry or Port and terminals hydrogen will be just to expensive when compared to other alternatives.


First there are now two ways hydrogen is being promoted as the saver fuel of the World. Fuel cell or IC engine ,which power source is used Hydrogen has still the same old problem You have to pressurise it to 350 bar and it has to fit in high pressure tanks both on the machine and when stored at a facility. The cost of this is extremely expensive Toyota spent over A$ 7 million for a refuelling station that can produce only 80kg of hydrogen per day.

Heli report their new hydrogen 4 - 5 ton forklift will have a range of 4 hours this is similar to an all electric truck , one reason for this might be a small hydrogen storage tank due to the high cost of the tanks themselves a 5kg Hydrogen tank would cost over $5,000. JCB State that hydrogen fuel cells need de ionised coolant that cost £20 per litre. and hydrogen its self would cost around $9.5 per kg. So for both to run and to service hydrogen fuel cells will be just to expensive for any company to use.

Hydrogen IC engines also have some major issues the first one is the low compression ratio due to the pre ignition of the hydrogen. The result of this is an engine that give much lower power compared to a conventional diesel engine. The JCB Hydrogen engine gives around 80KW when the same JCB Diesel engine gives 120KW. New Hydrogen IC engine equipment will also have the major issue of the high pressure tanks and storage.

Finally there is the problem of hydrogen supply. All the hydrogen projects around the world are to store and transport this hydrogen as ammonia meaning it has to be cracked back into hydrogen when it gets to site, a very expensive process. Here's what Aramco have to say on how they will store and transport their hydrogen

Hydrogen is a very light molecule. It can be liquified, but that requires keeping it at a temperature of -254°C, which makes it very difficult and expensive to transport - particularly over long distances. The solution lay in converting the hydrogen into a chemical compound which is already widely traded around the world: ammonia. 

Compared to hydrogen, liquified ammonia is far more convenient, practical and cost-effective to transport, in terms of both the required temperature and pressure conditions. 

Once the blue ammonia reaches its destination, it can be converted back into blue hydrogen,
  • Posted 22 Nov 2021 05:46
  • Discussion started by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Showing items 31 - 43 of 43 results.
Ok Where is it? your super truck that is. All of the corporations you have listed have the expertise , money to invest and all have their own way of doing things. Should you ever show up with your marvel of modern day tech i am sure there is going to be a path beaten to your that would make most of our minds spin. Seems you get all of your information from the internet. Reminds me of one of Will Rodgers famous quotes" All i know is what I read in the papers"
  • Posted 2 Dec 2021 05:19
  • Reply by Dexter1212
  • Texas, United States
Now I know before I even put what I'm going to say the Hyster fan club on here that always seem to say im just knocking Hyster are going to be up in arms. But I have my opinion on Hyster and just wondered if people agree or disagree.


Hyster have gone and spent hundreds of millions of dollars on Hydrogen fuel cells believing that they will be the future not just in materials handling but in other areas as well. Now companies Like KION have taken a slightly different approach they have partnered up with other companies Like Ballard who have developed the fuel cell, to me this is a lot less of a risk as they have not had to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars on this. Toyota have the advantage of having the hydrogen fuel cell program done with their automotive side so again lowering the risks.


Companies Like JCB, Cummins, Duetz Liebherr are all developing Hydrogen IC engines again this will have its own issues and in my opinion wont be successful because of a number of issues, like Spark ignition low compression rations pre ignition and hydrogen storage to say just a couple.

So how long will it be before shareholders in Hyster are wanting to see results in sales on their hydrogen fuel cell investment, what will happen if these results are not as what have been suggested by Hyster. What would this mean for Hyster
  • Posted 1 Dec 2021 22:50
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
i really don't have a clue
Nwright
Heli did not mention the lack of refuelling infrastructure - that was an editorial analysis based on the state of the market.
  • Posted 25 Nov 2021 10:19
  • Reply by TheEditor
  • Queensland, Australia
The editor
Tat2dPete

There are a number of projects in Scotland for ammonia like the Orkney islands project. It takes a lot of energy to crack ammonia back into hydrogen, then there are a number of other issues with hydrogen purity and high pressure. On ammonia as long as the right safety measures are taking ammonia is fine as a fuel.
  • Posted 25 Nov 2021 03:47
  • Modified 25 Nov 2021 03:50 by poster
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
In September 2020, the world's first shipment of blue ammonia was dispatched from Saudi Arabia to Japan, where it was used for power generation.

Meanwhile, another potential usage of ammonia rests in fuelling the traditional vehicles running on an internal combustion engine.



In conclusion, ammonia has the potential to play an important role in the transformation of the global energy system as a green and less-CO2 intensive energy source to meet the world's growing energy demand.

The power sector, which would undergo perhaps the most drastic structural shift in this transition when considering the global "greening the energy industry'' drive, could greatly benefit from utilising ammonia - whether blue or green - in meeting its emissions obligations.

Doing more research into Hydrogen Fuel cells and Forklifts, Government Policy (here in Scotland it is a very interesting policy). It is a very complicated subject for sure. But reading various articles it seems Ammonia would be about 80% efficient as a fuel source, they don't specify the parameters for efficiency.
But from what I can tell it seems there are issues with the toxicity and corrosive nature of ammonia hence the idea to use it as a carrier that can be converted back to hydrogen.
Its a very dark rabbit hole to go down for sure.
  • Posted 25 Nov 2021 03:09
  • Reply by Tat2dPete
  • Strathclyde, United Kingdom
Pete
You osted "Why don't you do some research and you might make a sensible contribution".
1. FYI this sentence should end with one of these. ? Got that down pat in the 2nd grade.

2, My response is simple >>>>>> Waiting on YOU first. Hard to believe you have exact details on specific R & D expenditure on specific projects. - Been with Large companies Mitsubishi, Komatsu, Allis- Chalmers (once a billion dollar company in the late 60s that rivaled Cat at that time - don't ever recall seeing that info open publicly published posted on a

Through your own posts and statements of multiple intro dates over several w/o producing a hand built prototype - just a Lego video. - you lack zero credibility on your own development of this ammonia eating, zero emission, modular design unit - Why would anyone take you as knowledgeable or even serious on any matter? Just because you say it is true doesn't mean it is. Fini Jack.
  • Posted 24 Nov 2021 08:06
  • Modified 24 Nov 2021 22:05 by poster
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
"Have An Exceptional Day!"
Like i have pointed out you really don't know anything about anything and certainly nothing about future fuels,

Why don't you do some research and you might make a sensible contribution. What has any of your post got to do with Hydrogen Fuel Cell forklifts. Again this is not a spurries from your background with Hyster. You probably believe Hyster has a future with their hydrogen fuel cells.
  • Posted 24 Nov 2021 01:12
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Wasn't aware forklifts could just drive up to a pipeline of any kind and fuel up- most port areas that I have ever visited on the east coast, New Orleans and Houston areas, Chicago Los Angeles, Miami, Vera Cruz, Mexico, Japan, have on site fueling like diesel and LP tanks to keep them "up & running". Do they have them do it for not so many shipped & deliver Ammonia eaters too? The world is waiting for your never produced one fork em up Lego style lift truck - Jack.
Remember you have done all the talking but your dream is like those flies in Alaska that they call them "no see 'ems"
  • Posted 24 Nov 2021 00:39
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
"Have An Exceptional Day!"
Well Curly sorry John , it's not surprising that you have not commented on the post but very predictable on what you have said. You truly don't know anything apart from Hyster and Eastern. If you did you would know there are thousands of miles of ammonia pipeline in the US and Canada.

But why change especially when you need Hyster to start to shift the hydrogen fuel cell. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on
  • Posted 23 Nov 2021 23:04
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Wonder how many ammonia fueling stations there are around the world. At one point in time when you proclaimed a large fleet of your envisioned (aka pipe dream) ammonia eating trucks on a rental basis will hit the beaches on the east coast of the North America someday soon. I raised this same question & your reply is that you would be providing a fleet of OTR tankers to service this fleet. How impractical and inefficient would that be to keep these units "up & running" in a timely manner especially with the traffic jam on the I-90 corridor in the States and weather issues in the NE & Canada. Maybe you can use the rapid transit system or Bidens new high speed rail idea that "might" happen in the next century or two. By all means Don't use the MTA system "Poor Ole Charlie" has never been found - https://www.youtube.com > watch If FAC strips out this link goggle these words - Kingston Trio M.T.A. YouTube - a 1959 song.

Hope Santa brings you a new & improved set of Lego blocks so you can build a second prototype out of the latest technology available to mankind in the name of Going Green/Save the planet.

For the record, I fully believe that the US has made significant strides in cleaning up the environment over the last 50+ years and continues to do so. (wish other countries would do the same 0 like China, India etc.). But I must confess that I sent pollutants into the atmosphere earlier this week for about 8 hours - like I have over the last 26 years - I burned a pile of dead vegetation and tree limbs this past Monday. This is allowed by our county & state (GA) - and in most rural or semi rural counties. We have a 3/4 of an acre of heavily wooded property and I clean the dead stuff ( limbs, scrub trimmings, etc) up into a pile and give it a Zippo (that is lighter used in Vietnam by US soldiers) treatment. Certainly, CO2 is released along with smoke and other bad stuff. But on the other hand the healthier trees process the CO2 into O2 which released via a process called photosynthesis during the night - a good thing. Georgia is blessed with an abundance of tree as is many of the starts are in the SE Regions and those along the Appalachian & Rocky mountain region and northern Mid West states.
  • Posted 23 Nov 2021 20:53
  • Modified 23 Nov 2021 22:01 by poster
  • Reply by johnr_j
  • Georgia, United States
"Have An Exceptional Day!"
No one also mentions how hydrogen will be stored and transported , all of this is by ammonia. Like you pointed out there is no supply or refuelling for hydrogen.

As pointed out the cost of doing this is so expensive only some small government backed projects exist
  • Posted 22 Nov 2021 19:56
  • Reply by Letaq60n
  • W. Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Heli is one of a handful of manufacturers globally producing hydrogen-powered forklifts and a spokesman says the company will add additional models in this "important and promising segment".

"In the future, Heli will continue to make efforts in the field of hydrogen forklifts (and) launch a series of hydrogen-powered products covering all types of counterbalance forklifts, tractors, and storage trucks," he explains. Heli will also increase its cooperation with core enterprises in the hydrogen industry chain to contribute to the development of hydrogen-powered forklifts globally.

One of the key challenges facing the hydrogen forklift market is the limited availability of hydrogen and the lack of fuelling facilities.

So they acknowledge that there is limited availability at present but are continuing to contribute to the development of these units. So are other established companies including JCB who were mentioned in the original post.

Funny that none of them talk about using ammonia as the fuel though....
  • Posted 22 Nov 2021 19:25
  • Reply by Tat2dPete
  • Strathclyde, United Kingdom
Pete

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