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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Industry News & Whispers
Discussion:  How long before the end of deisel powered forklifts
Number of messages: 19

START MESSAGE:
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Having seen over the last couple of years the development of better battery technology and other more sustainable development in technology with both Amazon and Walmart have investing heavily in hydrogen fuel cell powered trucks.  And also knowing the work going on to develop better large trucks away from Diesel it seem we are not long a way from the end of diesel counter balance forklifts.

As governments now look to ban diesel cars and companies look at their own sustainability and environmental impact by 2024 Diesel forklift will account for less than 10%  of new trucks sold



Modified 24 Aug 2017 03:58 PM
by poster.
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REPLIES: Sort replies by
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Having seen the New Hyster prototype for big electric trucks it makes you wonder what way people will go , hyster will offer a big electric forklift that will work for 3 hours before it needs a 1.5 hour recharge or for 50 min before it needs a 10 min recharge, operators will spend more time recharging the truck than  doing anything else. The only solution to big trucks electrics is a hydrogen fuel cell system that can run for 22 hours that be refilled in less than 5 mi. simple but effective

Posted 30 Aug 2017 06:50 PM Reply  Report this message
deadpan
...., Austria
There can be more than one solution to a problem. Battery technology will continue to evolve to facilitate a significant reduction in charging times, you can be sure of that. Look at the Kalmar FastCharge shuttle, for example.

The adoption costs for li-ion battery trucks are basically nil, this is not the case for hydrogen, so only larger fleets will be able to justify it in the short to medium term. So we will see sales of li-ion trucks surge in the next 12 months.

PS. Amazon has ordered 1000 li-ion trucks from Jungheinrich, so they are open to both solutions. It would be foolish to rule either one out at such an early phase in their development.

Modified 31 Aug 2017 08:47 PM
by poster.
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exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Is the Kalmar the fast charging that set a fire in Australia.As for hydrogen being more extensive to install that would all depend on how the system works.


Lithium has its qualities but only in light trucks on single shifts

Posted 1 Sep 2017 02:30 PM Reply  Report this message
deadpan
...., Austria
I have customers with li-ion trucks working across three shifts that would beg to disagree with you.

As I said already, I have nothing against hydrogen fuel cells and they will definitely have their part to play in the coming years, particularly in higher capacity trucks. I don't get why you have such a black and white view of li-ion and hydrogen fuel cell, both have benefits and can co-exist.



Posted 1 Sep 2017 06:34 PM Reply  Report this message
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
I agree both have there place, Lithium in smaller trucks up to 5,000kg, what would be good tho would be a litium battery that can be changed quickly in under 5 min.


Companies that i know that have multi shift work patterns would like there trucks to work all the time. I don't know a litium truck that can be back with out a minimum charging time of 2 hours for full shift . Lithium is good for the customer who only run one shift for the truck other wise there needs to be time to charge.

A example of what im saying can be found in the new Hyster big electric trucks. the J8.0XN can run for 8 hours then need a 2 hour recharge. the bigger planned container handling truck can works for 3 hours then needs a 90 min charge or 10 min charge every hour .
when time is taken into account the 90 min charge becomes 120 min and the 10 min charge becomes 20 min.


This  is the problem im saying Both Amazon and Walmart have made big purchases of Hydrogen trucks in the US this year saying have looked at all options hydrogen offered better value for money for a larger fleet.


If it was only one or two trucks working single shifts then lithium would be better up to 5,000kg

  

Modified 2 Sep 2017 01:37 AM
by poster.
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deadpan
...., Austria
Lithium works across multiple shifts for a lot of users. It's not suitable (yet?) for larger trucks, but 5 ton+ trucks are a small % of the market and I'm not interested in them. Measuring the suitability of lithium against such a small proportion of the market is not an accurate reflection of its potential, and you will see that in the next 12-24 months as lithium truck sales ramp up significantly.

Amazon just ordered 1000 lithium warehouse trucks, literally last month. How have they concluded that hydrogen is the best value solution then ordered 1000 lithium trucks? Clearly, they believe there is merit in both technologies, for now.

Posted 4 Sep 2017 10:39 PM Reply  Report this message
heightlift
North, United Kingdom
The lithium iron phosphate from BYD claim to have benefits over standard lithium, will the major brands start using this technology or will major battery manufactures adopt this technology when the patent runs out? Recycling lithium batteries is also a worry, so i am led to believe.

Posted 5 Sep 2017 08:28 PM Reply  Report this message
deadpan
...., Austria
Midac already uses lithium iron phosphate in their lithium offering. BYD LiFePO4 batteries are apparently quite simple to recycle, I believe this is not the case with the type of lithium battery that Jungheinrich, Toyota etc use.

In any case, in 2-3 years there will be so many more lithium batteries in cars that will need to be recycled that existing recycling companies will be geared up to do so.

Posted 5 Sep 2017 08:38 PM Reply  Report this message
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
The Amazon order was in Europe, In North America Both Amazon and Walmart have purchased around 17% of the equity in Plug power a hydrogen fuel cell manufacture.

To say that the market over 5,000kg dosent reflect the whole market in warehouse equipment automation will change how warehouse work in Europe and North America, companies like Toyota and KION will offer full automated warehouse not using reachtrucks pallet trucks and other small forklifts but use a different system all together  

Posted 5 Sep 2017 10:57 PM Reply  Report this message
deadpan
...., Austria
Doesn't matter which continent it was on, they still ordered them.

Amazon has acquired the rights to buy up to 23% of Plug Power and Walmart has agreed to buy 19%. Amazons involvement is to give it control over technology its competitors use, the same strategy they employed with Amazon Web Service.

Automated warehousing is here now, and it doesn't suit the vast majority of users. And at any rate, many of the AGV's in these automated warehouses will need lithium or hydrogen power anyway.

Posted 5 Sep 2017 11:29 PM Reply  Report this message
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Both Lithium and Hydrogen will play their parts in the demise of IC powered forklifts

Posted 6 Sep 2017 04:26 AM Reply  Report this message
Yidneck
N.Y.,

Lithium ion will become an environmental nightmare, as there's no way to dispose them. Hydrogen fuel cells you have the problem of doubling down time and repairs on the truck and high cost. I believe one day they might finally perfect Nicole Tessla's dream of wireless energy (Tessla coil) and eliminate the need for motive energy storage.

-------------------------
We fix'em cause it's our hobby. We bill'em cause we gotta make a living.

Posted 7 Sep 2017 10:19 PM Reply  Report this message
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Looking at the storms being caused by global warming,there needs to be a more sustainable future. Both hydrogen and lithium can answer this problem. As for down time of hydrogen fuel cell trucks they need less servicing than ic trucks and can be repaired much faster than ic trucks so how can they double down time

Modified 8 Sep 2017 05:53 PM
by poster.
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Yidneck
N.Y.,

Cause you now have A. An electric forklift prone to breakdowns. B. A hydrogen fuel cell prone to breakdowns.
And as far as sustainability. Deep cycle batteries are fully recyclable with every part being reused, including the acid. Lithium on the contrary is almost like nuclear waste.

-------------------------
We fix'em cause it's our hobby. We bill'em cause we gotta make a living.

Posted 8 Sep 2017 10:11 PM Reply  Report this message
deadpan
...., Austria
Very few lithium vehicle batteries have reached the end of their life cycle yet, so the technology to recycle them has barely started to develop.

The recycling of small lithium batteries is a well-established industry, it is either converted to lithium carbonate or dissolved to make it non-reactive and then used for other purposes. I don't believe it is similar to nuclear waste.

Also, there's only a small quantity of lithium in a lithium battery, approximately 100-200g per kWh of battery capacity.

Posted 8 Sep 2017 10:39 PM Reply  Report this message
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Hi Yidneck  and you don't have IC forklifts that break down. New technologies are coming that will help eliminate downtime. Diesel is now causing more health problems and other problems like contribution to global warming. Customers will all talk with their feet and move away from Diesel when new technologies move into the market.

Posted 9 Sep 2017 06:18 PM Reply  Report this message
deadpan
...., Austria
DP World trialling the Kalmar FastCharge shuttle carrier

https://www.forkliftaction.com/news/newsdisplay.aspx?nwid=19520&nwtype=411&counter=yes&usid=120613&neid=838


Posted 14 Sep 2017 07:59 PM Reply  Report this message
exalt
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Major Global companies are looking at more sustainable products. DP World are leading the way in the port sector. With Amazon and Walmart in the warehouse sector, This will be either Lithium iron products or Hydrogen Fuel cell products  

Posted 17 Sep 2017 00:02 AM Reply  Report this message


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