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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Lifting machines
Discussion:  Clark C300-30 LP fueled - won't stay running
Number of messages: 20
START MESSAGE:
Ripper
New York, United States 		OK, short version... This forklift sat for a long time. Before starting, the oil was changed, the plugs were changed, the points were cleaned, the coil was replaced, the alternator was changed and a brand new tank of propane was hooked up. It was a cold day that day, so the fuel system needed a little heat to get it moving. After it started, it ran for over an hour. It was used to move some pallets. At one point, it was shut down, then restarted a few minutes later. It stalled and it will no longer run. Starting fluid in the carb will keep it running, but it does not run off the propane tank.

There is fuel to and beyond the fuelock filter. The filter was taken apart and inpected, it was not clogged or even that dirty. In fact it looked brand ne inside. The vacuum port is not clogged and there is vacuum at the hose.

The vaporizer was taken apart and inspected. Inside, it appeared as new. Nothing hanging up, no restrictions. The rubber foot on the valve is intact and in perfect condition. The spring is responsive.

If I crank the starter with the vaporizer cover of, it builds pressure behind the valve inside. The fuel delivery hose to the carb was removed and inspected. No restrictions of any kind.

The carb was removed, disassembled and inpected. Everything appears to be in perfect working order. I cleaned out the center bore. It was the only part of the fuel system that looked used. The center diaphragm works if you move it by hand.

All of the components are Impco. I believe the engine is a Continental. It is a 4 cylinder flathead. Any help would b appreciated.

Posted 10 Feb 2012 04:05 AM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
mrfixit
New York, United States

 		The only thing you didn't mention in your "short version" is the fuel valve on the other side of the vaporizer, the primary side. There is a little spring steel plate with a rubber seal bonded on it. That's the piece the usually fails first.

Posted 10 Feb 2012 09:11 AM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		If that's the one with the spring, held down by a roll pin and a Phillips screw, it is fine. Guess you're glad I didn't go with the long version, huh?

I have a mechanical background, but never having worked on an LP fuel system before, there was, and still is, lots of figuring out.

Posted 10 Feb 2012 11:13 AM Reply  Report this message
mrfixit
New York, United States

 		No, take the cover off the other side.

Posted 10 Feb 2012 11:20 AM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		You mean the back side? I was unaware there was another cover back there..... I thought I was thorough... Oh well.... That's a job for tomorrow. Thanks.

Posted 10 Feb 2012 11:30 AM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		OK, took the back cover off. the spring steel piece looks and works just fine. Still no joy.....

Here's a weird update though. If I hold the vacuum line partially on the fuelock filter, the forklift runs (not perfect, but at least it runs). I can't keep it running that way, mainly because I can't hold the vacuum hose perfectly still.

Can I try bypassing the fuelock filter, just to see if the machine runs off the tank? If it does, I know it's a bad fuelock filter. If it doesn't, it's still discovery time as it could be either the vaporizer or the carb. I just dont want any fireballs in the shop.....

Posted 11 Feb 2012 08:05 AM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		ahhh, comon, burn down the house...
no really, all it is is a fuel filter and lock off so that it has to have vacuum in order to open the lock-off, it's ok to bypass for testing ONLY, do not leave it like that or very nasty surprises could be in your forklift's future.
have you checked the timing?

-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Posted 11 Feb 2012 11:52 AM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		As I said previously, the forklift runs fine on starting fluid and gasoline, so timing is not the issue. The only issue is fuel delivery. I will bypass the fuelock. As I said above, I don't know much about these systems, so I was afraid to just byass part of a fuel system that uses an explosive gas as its source. I've seen propane tanks explode. It's not a pretty sight, especially inside a building.

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.

Posted 12 Feb 2012 04:27 AM Reply  Report this message
mrfixit
New York, United States

 		Do you mean if you pull the vacuum line off the lock off valve and hold it near the fitting it runs? If so, then your lock off may be ruptured and is feeding gas to the vacuum line causing a very rich condition. If you get it started squeeze the vac hose with pliers and see if it runs differently. If so, the lock off is the problem.

Posted 12 Feb 2012 09:57 PM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		Yes, that is exactly what happens. I checked the diahragm and it looks to be completely intact. No tears, no pinholes, no ruptures. The filter is hardly dirty. I do smell propane coming out of the vacuum fitting after cranking, however, so my guess is you are correct that the fuelock is malfunctioning. It makes the most sense. I will bypass it today. I hven't been to the shop since I posted last. I may not post again until tomorrow. I get home late and I usually just eat and go to bed.... *** getting old...

Posted 14 Feb 2012 00:38 AM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		Latest update... I bypassed the fuelock. Same result. Won't run... Now I'm really confused..... I was hoping that would give me the answer I needed. I left the shop early.

Posted 14 Feb 2012 04:56 AM Reply  Report this message
meliftman
Alabama, United States

 		If it runs on starting fluid but won't run on lpg, you aren't getting fuel into the system. If you get fuel to the vaporizer from the lock off, you aren't getting fuel through the vaporizer  or the carb isn't  drawing. Even though it looked good, the carb diaphram could still be the problem.
If you can smell the lp, you could  be flooding, which is really hard to discover.

-------------------------
Liftman
Equipment, Inc.
Mobile, Al.

Posted 14 Feb 2012 01:06 PM Reply  Report this message
kevin_t
Pennsylvania, United States 		It takes a "hotter" spark to ignite LP fuel than it does to ignite starting fluid or gasoline, you said you cleaned the points,what about changing the points AND condenser and checking the wires and cap? What did you gap the plugs at when you installed them? what did you gap the points at? did they open up after you ran it for a while?

Posted 23 Feb 2012 08:13 PM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		Points look new, swapped the condenser, wires, cap and rotor all look like they just came out of the box. Points were se7 at 17, plugs at 35 (had nothing to go by, so I went Chevy). Nothing moved. This machine did run for over an hour. I used it to move pallets. Later on, I went to put it back outside and it stalled, then wouldn't start.

I am 110% positive it is a fuel problem. There is no fuel getting to the carb. If I play with the vacuum line to the lockoff valve, it runs. It is a brand new hose. The lockoff valve works if I disconnect the hose to the vaporizer. Something is not working right in he fuel delivery system. I have not even looked at the machine since I last posted. I have been too busy. My next try will be to remove the carb again and test it with a vacuum pump. After that, I might just have it towed out.

Posted 24 Feb 2012 00:43 AM Reply  Report this message
meliftman
Alabama, United States

 		You said it will run off ether and gas, you  were spraying each into the carb I would guess. Try just putting gas on a rag and hold to the mouth of the carb, if it runs or fires, you for sure aren't getting lp. If that is the case, if the lock off and vaporizor are connected by a line, loosen the line at the vaporizor end, if you have gas there, it isn't passing through the vaporizor, or too much is passing through. If it is the old style with the button, you can push the button and see if it pulses, gets hard, or remains soft. If it is a 100 series carb, try turning the big silver screw in several turns and see what happens.

-------------------------
Liftman
Equipment, Inc.
Mobile, Al.

Posted 26 Feb 2012 03:52 AM Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		OK, I had one of the mechanics available yesterdy, so we both fiddled with it for awhile. We changed the points, condenser and coil back to stock type parts (I had to improvise at the beginning when the original coil went bad). No joy. I am sure there is no LP getting to the engine. I'll go through, again, some of what was done so far (aside from above)...

1. Full tank of propane, filled recently.
2. Pressure to and beyond lockoff.
3. Pressure at vaporizer.
4. With vaporizer line cracked open, cranking produces gas pulses from cracked line.
5. Lockoff freezes up after non-starting. This hapened on day 1, but heating it with a heat gun allowed machine to start.
6. Machine ran for over an hour. It was used. It was shut off, restarted etc., etc., etc.
7. Last time it ran on its own, it started for a few seconds, then stalled. It was determined at that time that no fuel was flowing into the carb.
8. During attempts to restart, and fiddling with fuel lines, vacuum lines, etc, the coil burnt out. It was replaced, as were the ignition switch (replaced with a keyed version instead of just a handle) a few ignition wires (they were old and cracked, plus the copper was green) and the spark plugs and points were inspected and cleaned.
9. I noticed if I placed the vacuum line slightly on the post on the lockoff, the machine would run. Placing it fully on or removing it would cause the machie to stall.
10. Spraying stating fluid in the vacuum line or in the carb itself would allow the machine to run.
11. Placing the vaccum line in a can of gas would do the same.
12. The machine would run until the outside fuel would run out.
13. The vaporizer button pulses while cranking and while running. Occasionally, you hear gas when you hit it after cranking, but not always.
14. I do not see a big silver screw, bu there are a few rusty ones. I think the carb said Model 25? It's an Impco. Maybe it's Model 125? There is a deflector screw on the bottom. I have played with that without success. All it appears to do is send incoming vapor in one of two directions, or part of each direction.

I thought of taking the carb off and trying to find rebuild parts, but I have no clue where to look. SO far, all the parts we got came from the auto parts store. There's a good one locally that actually has parts for older stuff and the guys there know which end of the car is the front and that a Camaro could only have 2 doors.... (don't get me started)

Posted 26 Feb 2012 04:19 AM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		First, a  good clue is "Lockoff freezes up after non-starting" this is where the expansion of the gas is taking place, rather than inside the regulator, and IS the restriction you need to fix FIRST.
The lock-off's operation may be intermittent. While bypassing the lock-off may not have made it run, if you have a freezing vff30, you either have an external leak, or an internal expansion of gas, either way you need to fix it.  
Easiest and less expensive is to replace the entire lock-off. trust us on this, your lock-off is pouring gas into the carb. it does not mean there are NOT other problems, but if the lock-off is freezing, that is a good clue.
it requires good vacuum to be able to get fuel to flow into the carb from the regulator. Pushing the button in the center of the regulator may get some gas into the carb, but if you already have too much gas then you are not going to help anything.
next,
Please, please , please do not do a tuneup where you replace -some- spark-plug wires. do a good, complete and full tune up, changing all spark-plugs, gaping the plugs and replacing distributor cap, wires and rotor with the correct parts, and checking the timing. Do NOT replace " a few ignition wires". DO NOT clean the points, replace with new points, lube the cam, and set the dwell correctly. (.017 on the points seems close enough to get it running anyway)  
125 is a valid impco mixer model number as would 50, 55,100.
Your "deflector screw on the bottom" is a mixture setting, and has an arrow point on 1 side, that should be set to center, or 1 or 2 degrees from center.
If you don't find the big screw, it may be missing, which would create a huge vacuum leak were the screw should have been.
Order parts from any forklift dealer.
Does it have good spark at the coil wire?
Does it have good vacuum at the vacuum line?
Does it have good hot battery to spin it fast enough?
Does it have good compression?
Does it have good distributor shaft side play? (none) not up and down, but side to side. .  

-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Modified 26 Feb 2012 07:41 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		Why should I not replace bad ignition wires? They were bad, so they were replaced. I'm not talking about spark plug wires here, those are fine. As are the cap and rotor. As I said in my last reply, the points, condenser and coil have all been replaced with brand new components. Each plug fires strong. There is plenty of spark at every possible checkpoint. There are no vacuum leaks and there is plenty of vacuum. The battery is brand new. I did not check the compression, but it ran fine until it stalled. I don't believe it could have suddenly lost compression. The distributor is solid as a rock. I agree about the lockoff. I believe it is malfunctioning. I will get one next week. Thanks.

Posted 26 Feb 2012 09:05 AM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		My mistake. I was thinking (assuming) you were referring to bad spark plug wires as 'ignition wire' and I was saying that we should always replace all spark plug wires if some were bad, not just the bad ones, since the spark that should have gone done the bad ones had to find somewhere else to go, and it would have made a 'trace' for the spark to go, and that if 1 wire looks like it is is bad, all the wires are bad, and the cap is bad too. but if you are talking about the control wiring in the circuit for the coil, key-switch and distributor, then thank you for correcting me.

However if it was only the vff30 lock-off, you should be able to make it run by removing the hose and fitting that the fuel enters into the lock-off from the tank, and placing that fitting and hose where the fuel enters the model-J regulator, providing fuel directly to the regulator when ever the tank is turned on, (and plug the vac line between lock-off and carburetor) and your truck should be able to run without a lock-off filter. and if it does not run (which it appears from your posts, you have already tried this and it did not run), then you still have some other concerns.
And I hate to say this, but if you have the correct amount of fuel and good spark at each plug, and it does not run, then engine timing is the other leg of the three leg stool that needs to be correct.  

-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Modified 26 Feb 2012 10:48 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
Ripper
New York, United States 		Well, it was actually none of the above (sort of). I do appreciate the help, but the solution was found by accident. After changing the lockoff and the vaporizer without success, the solution was found by applying external vacuum to the lockoff while cranking it over.

On the bottom of the carb, there is an adjustment which appeared to do nothing (but appearances were deceiving). I believe someone mentioned this adjustment as a possible problem, but it was adjusted to every possible position, or so I thought, without success in a previous attempt, so that suggestion was added to to the "tried that, didn't work" file.

Well, it turns out that adjustment was critical. Unless you found the exact correct spot, the machine would not run. As I said up there, the correct spot was found completely by accident. Now, it runs like a top... My guess is, I somehow turned the screw while either cleaning the carb or while taking it apart or putting it back together. That started a chain of events that caused me to post here looking for help, among other things....

In any case, thanks for all the tips and advice. Even though it turned out to be something midlessly stupid, the help received was not, and it is really appreciated. Now I get to paint flames on the forklift......

Posted 18 Mar 2012 01:39 PM Reply  Report this message

Ningbo Ruyi

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