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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Warehouse storage and handling
Discussion:  VNA Trucks
Number of messages: 16
START MESSAGE:
Fernandes
Aveiro, Portugal 		Hi,

I need a operacional opinion of these equipments:

- Juncheinrich EKX513
- Hyster C1.3
- Atlet Ergo Stacker Picker
- OMG Genius 1.2
- BT VCE150A
- Still MX-X

Someone, works or worked with some of this models? Please let me know yours experiences...

Other question, some manufacturers equip these machines with 48V batteries and claim that performance is not impaired. However, the 48V battery generates more heat, and long-term can affect other components of the machine. Does anyone have any opinion on this?

In short, if you had to choose one to buy, which would be the choice?

Thank you very much for your help.

Modified 26 Jul 2011 11:28 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
chublil
California, United States

 		I have a fleet of around 25-- 6000lb capacity 48 volt units, and the performance parameters are faster than the 36 volt stuff. 36 volt batteries tend to have a longer discharge cycle, (more plate surface area and less cell wall) than a 48 volt, but I have not seen any negative effects from using good condition 48 volts. If you want longer run times- go 36 volt. If you want increased hydraulic and travel performance, go 48 volt. Most operators prefer 48 volt.

-------------------------
Fix it right!!!

Posted 28 Jul 2011 08:10 PM Reply  Report this message
Fernandes
Aveiro, Portugal 		Thanks for your opinion chublil!

My doubt is between 48 and 80V!! But I presume that We can do the same reasoning...

One 48V battery to lift 2200 lbs at 9m of heigth... This configuration seems functional?

Posted 29 Jul 2011 01:24 AM Reply  Report this message
Forkingabout
england, United Kingdom

The BT VCE 150A has been around for a while now, it's a 48 volt truck & it has a hydraulic accumulator that stores pressure to help lift the load & cab.
Basically when you lower the accumulator stores pressure ready for the next lifting application.
We still get the odd safety campaign come through for the VCE but they dont cost the customer anything as BT warranty pays for those.

My tip for VNA is always get the biggest AH capacity battery specified for the truck in question.

Do you need a man up truck or could you manage with a man down truck?

There is the brand new BT Vector R man down truck, its only just come out & its based on the latest RRE Reflex, its the replacement for the old BT Veflex, the new Vector R also has a similar hydraulic accumulator set up to reduce lifting effort.

A BT Vector R VRE 150 might be worth a look if you want to also look at man down trucks as well.

Posted 29 Jul 2011 04:20 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		chubhill,
why do you say a 36 v battery will give you long run time than a 48 v?  As long as the kwh rating (power consumption capability) of each battery is the same the run time should be the same and it has been my experience that a 36v & 48v  battery of the same battery box size & weight will have comparable kwh ratings.  Plus, the cost difference (36v to 48v) in batteries & chargers is negligible -~$100 for increased performance/productivity.
The lower the voltage the higher the amp draw (or heat - an enemy of motors, electrical & solid state devises.
80 volts systems & batteries draw even less amps.

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Modified 29 Jul 2011 05:41 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
Fernandes
Aveiro, Portugal 		Yes I knew that VCE has one hydraulic accumulator!

BT gives a warranty of 14h in operation with one battery. Could be this possible? This is the more expensive machine...
Forkingabout,do you think that it is a good option?

Modified 29 Jul 2011 09:43 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
Forkingabout
england, United Kingdom 		If you pick the correct AH battery the VCE 150 can easily do 14 hours on one charge.

It all comes down to:

How many lifting / lowering operations.
How far is the truck traveling between & also up / down the aisles.
The weight you are lifting.

You can also get double accumulators on the higher lift VCE.

They have been around for a good long while now & BT have got the bugs ironed out, if there maintained & looked after correctly there pretty much bulletproof & will just keep on going.

How many machines are you looking to buy? have you asked if a demo VCE machine is available for a on site trial?

Are you going for wire guidance or guide rails?

Posted 30 Jul 2011 00:46 AM Reply  Report this message
Fernandes
Aveiro, Portugal 		Yes I know that the battery duration depends of variety of factors.
We have an offer for a battery with 48V an 1245Ah. What you think of this?

We have aisles with 55 meters of lenght and 9 metters of heigth. The machine will lift a maximum of 2200 lbs at 9 metters and have a residual capacity of 3300lbs!

We will buy just one machine, so the demo is out of chance.
We have the opportunity to see them in other factory. And maybe be we will do that!

We already have one machine of other brand working with rail guidance and we will keep the same system to avoid unnecessary extra costs of setup.

So in your opinion the VCE150 is good buy? Although slightly more expensive?

Modified 30 Jul 2011 01:09 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

 		Johr it is simple, within the same area a 36 volt battery has more surface area than a 48 volt. the more plate you can put into the equation the longer the run time.

-------------------------
Fix it right!!!

Posted 30 Jul 2011 02:53 AM Reply  Report this message
Forkingabout
england, United Kingdom 		Fernandes - im gonna always say the VCE is the best option as I work for BT.

Go have a look at a VCE working for a living & ask the people using it what they think.

Posted 30 Jul 2011 04:26 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		chubil
As we say on the East Coast "That Dog Don't Hunt".
Let's take two industrial batteries (a 36v & a 48v - flat plate - lead acid & they both meet the minimum weight required for the lift truck.  These batteries are very common to a 5k sit down rider electric lift to use as an example to illustrate what I mean-  

A. 18-85-24 - 36v, 85 amps/pos plate-1020 amp hr@ 6 hour rate - 23 plates/cell - 35.8kwH

B. 24-85-19 - 48v, 85 amps/pos plate-765 amp hr@ 6 hour rate - 19 plates/cell - 35.8kwH

Both batteries have the same kwH rating or equal amounts of power to be consumed and same number of positive plats/cell - this gives us an apples to apples comparison - no funny stuff with tubular batteries, changing amps per positive plate, etc, etc.
1.  A 48 volt battery has 24 cells & a 36 volt battery has 18 cells or the 48 volt battery has 33% (or 6 cells more) MORE cells than the 36 volt battery.
2.  The 48 volt battery has 17% LESS plates per cell than the 36 volt battery or 4 less.
3.  The 48 volt battery has a total of 456 plates (24 x 19),  While the 36 volt battery has 414 total number of plates (18 x 23)

The forklift run time is based on kwH usage - you pay your home electrical bill on the kwHs you consume to power all those electrical think in your home - some 110/120v some 220/240volt. You recharge the battery with kwH use.age.  A battery stores that kwH capability to be consumed.

So in this example less plates actually produces the same kwH rating but there is more amperage draw (or heat) with the 36 volt system.    

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Posted 30 Jul 2011 11:29 AM Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

 		Johnr, if you say the spec is on than I take your word for it. I have a fleet of dual voltage trucks, and in the same application, same truck model, the 36 volt batteries last on average about 1 to 1 1/2 hours longer than the 48 volt batteries within the same tray spec. The only difference being the 48 volt trucks outpace the 36's. Why is that?

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Fix it right!!!

Posted 1 Aug 2011 06:48 PM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		chubhill,


1.  no doubt you are right, but you need to go by the cell amps per positive plates & the total kwh rating of the battery.  Going by the tray size does not give you an apples to apples comparison.  See tray sizes are for the most part common in height today (in the 60's this was not true) which means the battery cells are common in height.  Battery manufactures can & do vary the height of the cell plates (changing the amount of plate surface) that go into to cell "can" to produce various amp/positive plate & greater kwh - sorta like engines in a car use the  same engine block play with the head design, camshaft, cylinder bore, etc & create higher horsepower (which is equivalent to a kwh rating).  The greater the horse power the greater the cost (sell price) of the engine - you pay for more power.  

2.  48 volts have a lower amph/hr rating, great less heat (resistance) so the dual voltage motors can turn faster (~33% faster).  Heat is an enemy of a motor & electronic devise - less brush wear, less contactor tip wear.  If your 48v units are moving more loads by being faster per battery charge than the 36v - then they are more productive & costs you company less per load moved.  That is a good thing - check it out at your end.

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Posted 1 Aug 2011 08:19 PM Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

 		I guess then that if you took the biggest 48 volt and 36 volt battery that would fit in the dimensions of your tray, the 36 volt would have more plate area due to less outer cell material, correct?

-------------------------
Fix it right!!!

Posted 1 Aug 2011 08:46 PM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		In each cell your are correct but the 48 v battery has 12 more cells so the total plate surface area would be greater- this assumes both batteries have the same same amp rating per positive plate & the same total kwh & we are taking about flat plate cells vs tubular design which typically has more surface area than flat plates but has some limits & some benefits.
Lets do this so I can better understand what you have in your lifts.  Go out to your fleet of sit downs & get the battery model number from a unit with 36 v battery & one with 48v & measure the battery trays length, width,  height (measure height to top of lifting eye) - the model number maybe on a battery tag with a bar code or stamped in the case.   The model will be in this format - for 36 volt battery 18-XX(x)-yy; 28 volt - 24-xx(x)-yy.  If you cannot find it on the case - lift the top cover, disconnect the battery, remove all rings, watches, were eye protection & don't touch any of that white stuff you may see - that has no street value but it will eat the heck out of anything with cotton - it is an acid sulfate.  Find the red cable, go to where it is  connect to the battery, remove the (or more than one) plastic inter cell connector cap(s) closest to the pos. cable.  The model number should be stamped on top of one of the inner cell connectors.  If you can't find it then teh connectors may have been replaced & teh tech - did not restamp the connector (supposed to - but it is 2011).
Another idea get a hold of your forklift dealer rep & have him bring in the rep from the battery company that made the batteries & request he bring in literature & other information on batteries for your better understanding - you'll get enough information that will challenge the number of pages in A.H.'s book "Mein Kampf" (at one time it was rated the worlds largest book) .  It has been my observation, that few forklift guys understand batteries & the battery guy is like a "Maytag"  rep.  they luv an audience & Q & A sessions - they can get way too technical at times but tell him you don't want to know how to make one just a better understanding of what they are & what options are available to make your job easier.  And if they don't have let's say a tubular battery or other options - like MF, etc.  they will tell you nuttin' but bad about them  Heck you might get a lunch out of the deal.
Just "Free Food & Info For Thought"

PS - I was a lift truck sales/marketing guy for several decades (like 4+1 year) & I wanted to know about batteries & options so I could better consult with my prospects & customers - I am a tech oriented guy - degree in engineering (never engineered one thing for a company I worked for only to get a grade in college or some "back yard engineering).

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Posted 2 Aug 2011 04:03 AM Reply  Report this message
just_a_guy
South Carolina, United States 		Back to the original question...If you want optimal performance without losing capacity at the top of the mast, stick with the Still or the Linde. 80 volts has out performed the traditional 36 / 48 volt for several years now. however, you must do proper battery maintenance in any of these voltages if you don't, then it won't matter. Your trucks won't perform and you will end up owning more nbatteries than you want..

Any way, thse other brands are alsoran's....Go with the Linde or Still with the Jungheinrich 3rd...

Posted 1 Sep 2011 10:03 PM Reply  Report this message


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