WOW 40%? Thats unreal IS that just the sorry people that wont work or high priced operations that some cant afford?Never thought it was that high.I think Ill check into that.Thanks for the wake up call.

I agree that the harder you work the more is taken from you. The middle class will always pay for the losers and the lazy, unfortunate but true. I was just trying to make a point against government health care by saying people in the US who are uninsured probably aren't really trying hard to be insured. I have already worked 2 jobs, worked 3rd shift, nights, weekends, you name it I did it to survive and get by. My family was always insured. I still work 10 to 12 hours a day, sometimes 16 so I can stay insured, have a house, vehicles and some toys. I know lazy people will never work two jobs, even one to keep insured. They will just take government handouts that we provide the money for. As for $3,000 real estate taxes, that is actually cheap. In my area you pay $2,500 for every $100k your house is worth. Absolutely ridiculous considering I live in an area where you have to drive at least 30 minutes to get to anything. (Grocery store, mall, shops, etc.)

batman, "get a better job?" i have a great job but i also pay $3500 for health care that only pays a portion of the bill. " pay more for education? i have to pay $3000 a year for real estate taxes on a house that's worth $160,000. not to mention the fica taxes, medicare taxes, the gas taxes, utility taxes, federal income tax, state income tax, sales tax for everything i buy, the special assesment tax, local sales tax, just to name a few. how much more do we have to pay for deadbeats. the US work ethic is "if you don't work you get everything paid for by the government. i should say paid for by us. Bush signs into law that all idiots who took out ARM loans and can't afford it can now write off any write downs taken by the lending institution and their ARM's will now be frozen for 5 years. we reward the losers in this country. not the hard working people.

Also, many of your neurses are Canadians as well. Many years ago, the government in Ontario layed off a bunch of nurses, so the American hospitals came up here to recruit nurses to the States. Unfortunate, but over the past several years, nurses employment have been on the rise. Instead of keeping count on what was given to the patient re invoices, they do look after you well. They are great. My MS doctor is one of the finest in the world, and is world renowned, so we do have excellent doctors left in Canada.

As an independent entrepreneur, I do not have any health insurance however my wife, who is employed by the federal government, does. So, that is an advantage for me.

The cost of a university education, we shall say for doctors, is much, much cheaper here in Canada than stateside, and where people get peeved off is when these medical students, who have their education partially subsidized by the government (us), jump ship, and run to the States for more pay.

I say, if you are educated in this country, you have to spend at least 10 years in Canada doctoring before you can go stateside to work, at least. But we do live in a free and democratic country, and I guess there are no restrictions in place to keep people back. I suppose that is the difference between the Americas, and the other part of the world, that we shall not mention.

I couldn't have said it any better. Many of the finest doctors in the US came from Canada because they want to make more money. Canada is losing expertise in the medical field because medicine is no longer a capitalist enterprise. My opinion: Keep government out of as much as possible. If you can't afford your insurance bills get a better job. If you can't get a better job get an education. The US pays for education. I guess we are attacking the problem a little differently. Pay for education so you can get a high paying job so you can afford insurance.

Well, I suppose that you are right. However, many of your finest doctors are Canadian because they do not like getting preset earnings based on a government handbook.
#2 Even though the American style medicine is based on profit, why are most of the largest drug companies failing to meet their shareholders hopes, and cancelling drug programs that are not immediately PROFITABLE for those shareholders? As a guinea pig for an oral MS drug, I read about the horror stories of individuals on some test study, looking for that pie in the sky cure, only to be shot down because of lack of profits in an American company.

Don't get me wrong batman, if your company had an opening for a training manager, and wanted the best, I would be down there lickety split. Maybe not Michigan, but into the states. Weather is primary, selection of products secondary, prices...our dollars are at par, taxes...NYC not cheap. I know I won't be an immigrant, so all I have to look forward to in my old age is the fact that the medical sytem in Canda will look after me to the day I die. In the US, maybe until the day I stop paying my premiums. Don't know!

Let me just throw this out: Say health care globally goes private, which is to say the government controls costs and pays all medical expenses. All of a sudden the profit margin drops drastically and the smartest kids today don't really see a big future in medicine, instead they go into law, or engineering. Also, the pharmaceutical companies profit margin drops big time and every big investor bails on thier stock. There R&D budget tanks and new medicines to fight diseases are no longer researched unless financed by some government department set up to invent new medicine which is corrupt so new medicines are super slow to get to market. Hey, our health care today is great and free. 30 years from today, our kids are grown up and living with our medical technology. This is not a far fetched scenario. If you take the profit away from an industry the industry will eventually dry up.

Canadians cross the border because wait times are lengthy here, and in many, but not all cases, the surgery can be done much quicker in the US. As far as th quality of surgeons, we have many internationally recognized surgeons, and so-so surgeons, just like anywhere else.

In the odd case, and I mean infrequent, the level of care may not be quite as sufficient here than in the US, or the available equipment as well. And if it is very serious, life threatening disease, which may go well beyond are area of expertise, or availability, then the patient goes to the US. Sometimes, the government will cover some, or all of the costs if required, but not all the time.

As far as who pays for this free stuff? I guess we do, in the form of taxes. Whether there is a small payroll tax, GST, taxes on gasoline, whatever, we pay, but it is sort of buried. I break my leg tonight, if I cannot get there, an ambulance will bill me $25.00 in the mail. Once they take me to the hospital, I don't see any charges whatsoever. Whether the cast costs $50.00, or $500.00, I do not see an invoice. I think that is fair.

There's pros and cons to this issue, and everyone has there opinion. For the majority of Cnadains, they wouldn't have it any other way. Medicine in Canda is treated as a necessity. Not as a business, especially on the NYSE. Medicine for profit? Or medicine because of care? In Canada, care!

Our perscription drugs are a helluva lot cheaper and that is why some US states purchase their drugs in Canada.

Anyhow, that is my opinion.

Dan, sounds like a dream come true. But then why are Canadian citizens crossing the border into the US for surgeries? They are willing to pay cash instead of the "free" method. Also, who pays for all this "free" medical service? I visit Canada usually once a year and am amazed at the taxes that are tacked on to everything. You live there so I will take your word for it but I can tell you this, if I need life saving surgery I would much rather pay a top notch surgeon $500 per hour than a mediocre surgeon who works for whatever pay scale the government has set up.

The land between the 2 oceans was referred to as Canada. Actually, three oceans. The Arctic Ocean as well. LOL.

Socialized health care. Works for me. Break a leg. Go to any hospital. They fix it. No invoice. Go home. Simple. Only issue is the wait times, especially in emergency, for non life threatening ordeals.

I was recently diagnosed with MS. I don't think anything is wrong with me however the inital emergency room diagnosis, the xrays, catscans, doppler in the neck, ultrasound of my heart, optical nerve testing, mris, everything, but everything did not cost me a red cent.

When one requires an operation, not one red cent changes hands. And you can go anywhere you want. Added costs would include semi-private or private rooms in hospitals (no cost if you have added insurance coverage), medications while not in the hospital, and parking.

I think it is great.

As I said, wait times in emergency rooms can be lenghty, awaiting non life threatning operations are lenghty as well, and if not lucky, MRI wait times, and the availability of topnotch medical equipment is not as widely available as in the US. Don't get me wrong, we have the latest equipment, but we also have alot of people waiting for the same services.

Also, immigrants from 3rd world nations tend to take up valuable space and time. Even if their kids have the sniffles, they will spend time in the hospital awaiting a doctor. No problem, they get free lunch vouchers from the government and they get to eat that day. The mother, with her seven noisy, pesty kids running around causing havoc. Then, they get to go home in their government subsidized Dodge Caravan (used albeit), all for choosing Canada as their new home. And don't foget the no cost baby deliveries, in nice clean modern hospitals. They are so excitied, they tend to have at least 10 kids each.

Regardless of the problem, regardless of your financial state, regardless where you have immigrated from, all your health care, hospitals, doctor visits, specialists visits, are all free of charge, sort of speak. Dentists cost $$$. Eye exams for non-kids cost $$$. Cosmetic surgery cost $$$.

My father in law had very bad arthritis in both his hands. They were actually curled up, and painful. 2 operations later, they look and work fine. His cost=0$$$$.

Socialized health care system. Advantages and disadvantages. The only thing we look at here in Canada is that the nurses are not walking around with invoices everytime you are given a pill, or xray. The bad-wait times.

Hope this answers your queastion.

Dan, since this discussion has gone so far from forklifts... I would like your
opinion on your health care system. Depending on our elections next year
we may get first hand experence with government health care in the US.
Anybody else living in a country with a health care program please let me
hear from you as well.

'Canadian Americans'???

Very much appreciated. I look forward to talking with him again.

Message for Batman....it was Gerry Erwin. He is now manufacturing machines in Canada at Superlift. I will send you his contact details and he would love to hear from you early January when he gets back to work.
I knew all this knowledge would come in handy one day. Cheers from Forkliftaction.com

Wouldnt it be nice if they spoke english