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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Industry News & Whispers
Discussion:  What is a "Japanese" forklift?
Number of messages: 22
Page: [1] 2
START MESSAGE:
steve_l
Tennessee, United States

 		I see the term "Japanese" forklift used as a derogatory term at Forkliftaction discussion groups by some of its members from time to time.  I would like to know what forklifts fall into that group and which forklifts do not.  Or even if there is such a thing as a "Japanese" forklift.  Also I would like to know what is wrong (or right) with "Japanese" forklifts.

Thanks!

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We are what we want to be....

Posted 9 Jun 2007 10:10 PM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
jiri_k
Ostrava-Kuncice, Czech Republic

 		I have " no idea ", basic different from my point of view that Japanese forklift used only split wheel ignored multipiece wheels with option to change ofset position. Wheelbase could be fixed.

Posted 20 Jun 2007 10:20 PM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Texas, United States 		Japanese Lift Trucks = Toyota, TCM, Nissan, Komatsu, Mitsubishi (Cat is a Mitsubishi that is Yellow and has the CAT name).  Most of these are built in the US under the guidelines of there respective homeland headquater offices.  Capacities above 15,000 lbs are imported to US from Japan.  In the mid 1980's there were anti-dumping duties imposed on ICE trucks on all Jpanese imports up to 15,000 # lift capacity.

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Have An Exceptional Day!

Posted 22 Jun 2007 8:35 AM Reply  Report this message
steve_l
Tennessee, United States

 		Hi John,

What about Yale/Hyster with their built-in-Japan Mazda power trains?  Do they not qualify?  If they don't qualify then why not? While they offer a GM power train (as does Toyota etc.) the vast majority of their ICE forklifts are Mazda powered.  Just poking at this definition to see how it fits.

Thanks!

-------------------------
We are what we want to be....

Posted 22 Jun 2007 9:20 AM Reply  Report this message
jiri_k
Ostrava-Kuncice, Czech Republic

 		"Japanesee" is designed and tested in Japan.

Posted 26 Jun 2007 6:10 PM Reply  Report this message
Toyotaman
Rhode Island, United States

 		I'll stir the pot a little.

In my opinion it's where the frame is built (stamped and welded), mast is built and the truck is assembled.

If the the above is done partially or completely in Japan, then it's Japanese.

Posted 27 Jun 2007 8:47 AM Reply  Report this message
tateo_i
Tokyo, Japan 		It all depends on how you want to use or express. And there's, I think, no need to specifically clarify the country of origin. We are not the tax collector.

My personal surprise when I visited first to US in early '80, not a few people thought "Sony" was a US company.

Toyotaman's definition is very close to US International Trade Commission's decision made by June 1988 for the anti dumping case on Japanese forklift trucks to US market.

Everybody agrees that it is useless to determine a "nationality" of multi national conglomerates.

Many understands Clark is a US company while the rest believes it became a Korean company. Is Kion a US company, or German? But, who can tell the nationality of KKR and Goldman Sachs. Their money comes from all over the World.

For me, Kalmar is a Swedish maker rather than a Finnish.
Therefore, I understand, it all depends how you want to interpret except tax imposition cases.

Sorry, I know I'm away from what Steve I raised.

Posted 27 Jun 2007 11:24 AM Reply  Report this message
steve_l
Tennessee, United States

 		I was told by a member of the forklift community that there is a large forklift mfg based in the US that is sourcing plastic parts and consoles from China.  Anyone know the truth to that?  

Also, Tateo, I believe that you are on topic, actually.  I am asking the question what is a Japanese forklift and you just made me wonder how you define a US forklift.

Hmmmm....

-------------------------
We are what we want to be....

Posted 27 Jun 2007 12:16 PM Reply  Report this message
Toyotaman
Rhode Island, United States

 		So Steve,

If you have consoles built in China, frames built in Mexico and engines built in Japan. BUT they're assembled in Kentucky. What does this make them? Chexanese?

Modified 27 Jun 2007 12:44 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
duodeluxe
New Hampshire, United States 		As some of you may remember, some time ago themost of the manufacturers that trucks exported to the US from Japan were charged and found guilty with "dumping". They all had to post a bond (Tariff) which varied depending on the severity of the "dumping". Most argued that it was unfair and thier argument was that mosts trucks sold in Asia and Europe were sold by agents or company owned stores whereas in the US most dealers are independant.
In order to negate the Tariff, the affected parties would have to have thier trucks "made" in the US.
I still consider these manufacturers to be "Japanese". It seems to me that all of these trucks are eerily similar to each other and once the leader, Toyota redesigns a truck, the rest follow suit. I am refering mostly to the cosmetics of the truck. I also believe that in most cases(except for SAS), if you were to lift the chassis off a "Japanese" truck, not only would they all pretty much be the same, but they would also show that none of them have any significant changes or improvements in the last 25 years.
Posted 27 Jun 2007 11:54 PM Reply  Report this message
steve_l
Tennessee, United States

 		I see your point on the insides being very similar. But is that because every manufacturer has to contend with the same laws of physics, has to comply with the same CARB standards, and has to satisfy the same customer requirements?  That may be the start of an answer to your question.

Also, when you pull the exteriors of all these forklifts what power train manufacturers are we seeing?  With exception of a very few GM engines sold, we see Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Toyota.  Does anyone disagree that the power trains on these forklifts represent in excess of 50% of the value of the components?  Are  the "traditional US manufactures" in a state of denial on this issue?  Why are we not using Ford, Chrysler, or GM power trains in all our forklifts?  My answer to this question is simple and I believe is true.  Because OUR CUSTOMERS told us what power trains they want through their purchasing decisions.

Of course this discussion does not restrict us to just ICE forklifts.  Anyone else have a market where Class I, II, and III represents over 50% of the forklift sales in their territories?  Any Japanese forklifts in that group?

Thanks for the ideas and insights!

-------------------------
We are what we want to be....

Posted 28 Jun 2007 8:35 AM Reply  Report this message
Toyotaman
Rhode Island, United States

 		Class 1 is great for Toyota, Class 3 is getting better today and Class 2 is a different story.

Posted 29 Jun 2007 9:16 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Texas, United States 		No matter where the truck componetry comes from or where it is made - it must conform to the the design and quality standards set forth by the head offices of these Japanese brand name companies.

Similar trucks models built in the US are different than those built in Japan for their domestic market  from some respects - 1.) they don't need to comply to our CARB regulations; 2.) The don't need to comply with UL; 3.) Often the engines used in Jpan are smaller in HP than those use in the US. 4.)  Three stage masts for counterbalanced trucks are a rarity in Japan.

I think you are hung up on content - most Japanese manfucaturers want to include as much US content in their brands as feasible to comply with the "built or made in the US" which allows them to participate without penalty on various government projects without penalty.  Again they make those changes as long as they comply with head office standard of design and quality.

Posted 29 Jun 2007 11:53 PM Reply  Report this message
dave_j
West Yorkshire, United Kingdom 		Allow me to summarize, firstly what difference does it really make where the truck is built as long as it complies with all the countries legislation regarding safety, emissions etc. Secondly Toyota builds all its trucks in the country where is sells most of particular models, Compact in US, European specification in France, Italian brands surprisingly in Italy and the models for the Far East in Japan. They don't believe in shipping huge quantities around the world when they can be built "locally". That's why they have worldwide manufacturing plants. They use predominently Toyota engines as thees are designed specifically for industrial equipment not automobile engines as others do particularly in Europe with VW. Now as we don't sell many compacts in Europe it makes no sense to build them there. I just needed to clear up a few things.  (Toyota Salesman!!)

Posted 27 Jul 2007 6:31 PM Reply  Report this message
etharp
North Carolina, United States 		Dave_J Thanks for the clarification as to who you support, and it's motivations. I am all for "full disclosure" so to speak. I have to agree that, these days, referring to any brand of forklift sold in the USA today by it's design engineering offices location, or country of origin of some components is "a derogatory term", used as an attempt to define the competition, rather than defining themselves, which is always a "less intelligent" or "more base"method of attempting to equalize a negative. (pull *them* down w/ f.u.d., not prove *my* worth with deeds or facts)
*them* and *my* being generic terms, not specific people f.u.d. being fear uncertainty and doubt, well know sales tactics.

it does mater where a truck was made to some folks, I know a number of folks who are corporately aware of human rights conditions, and would not want to purchase anything they thought had any chance of having been made by slave or child labor, I also know of some companies / organizations / fleet / end-users having requirements that at least a percentage of the value of the unit must be "in country origin" since they are supported by tax dollars.      

A note on the previous discussion regarding anti-dumping laws and tariffs imposed, my memory of the whole shebang was it was motivated by the steel industry, not the forklift  manufacturing industry, and trade laws preventing over importation of steel, thus the frame and counterweight concern. it was not some "technology dumping" with engines and drive trains.
Now, when we list the few engine or transmission or hydraulic pump suppliers of all trucks, if you had lined up all the trucks sold in the USA in 1964, you might list even fewer suppliers, Clark, A/C, Hyster, Baker, Towmotor/Caterpillar, (can anyone say Continental motors? can anyone say Rockwell brakes?
Surly you don't believe customers spec out drive trains for forklifts, unless they are 200+ unit fleets of greater than 10,000 trucks?
the motivation for where to build is always going to be the bottom line, you can ship more components and do assembly local and avoid some taxes and/or wage and/or liability concern, that's what you do.
as far as the salesman's FUD re; engines made for industrial use vs engines for automotive, same argument was heard about the h20 nissan as used by TCM, Komatsu and Nissan, and now k21/k25 as used by TCM, Komatsu, Cat, Mitsu, etc...it's an industrial engine from the designs beginning. So was a continental y112,,, didn't I see a Toyota with a GM V6 4.3? is that one of those motors Toyota uses that is "Toyota engines as thees are designed specifically for industrial equipment not automobile engines as others do" (I don't think soooo)

Posted 27 Jul 2007 9:07 PM Reply  Report this message
dave_j
West Yorkshire, United Kingdom 		etharp - interesting reply. Particularly in relation to defining the competition as opposed to defining oneself and in your opinion it being a less intelligent method of attempting to equalize a negative for fear of uncertainty & doubt.  I think you may have misunderstood in that I make no attempt to "pull them down" and in fact use facts based on truck sales, manufacturing processes and respect for its employees American or other and obviously not sweat shops in China. These processes are used and copied worldwide - heard of TPS, Kaizen, Kanban, JIT, Genchi Genbutsu.  Ask any manufacturer about its environmental commitments and policy and you will see Toyota sets the standard.  Ask about the  economy in Columbus, In. or the fact that 99% of all American market trucks are built in North America, ask about the number of employees employed in the US or the revenue created.  There must be good reason why they hold the position of market leader in the US and in fact worldwide.  We live with a global economy and I agree 100% with your point about child or slave labour and I'm sure you're not trying to imply that Toyota operate such practices.

Posted 27 Jul 2007 10:37 PM Reply  Report this message
etharp
North Carolina, United States 		Thanks for the chance to clarify, I was NOT attempting to link any "Japanese" (or any other nation/geographic area) truck manufacturer with any slave or child labor camp, just making a note that -anyone- who uses a national geographic area to link the _competition's_ truck to, without acknowledging the fact their product has nearly the same dollar value "world sourced components" is attempting to make -that- link, at least roughly, in anyone who is foolish enough to accept that thinking and linking.

And Dave_J, I did not think it was you who would have been using the term "Japanese trucks" as a derogatory term, which was the discussion topic in the first post, and my motivation for posting what I did about FUD.
In my honest opinion, as to why "they hold the position of market leader' has a lot to do with the fact they define (and you accept) what "market leader" means. Does it mean they have the oldest trucks in daily operation, or the longest life expectancy or warranty, does it mean their customers are the most happy with the purchase, or does it mean they sold more units this year, or 12 years ago?
Since Toyota defines "market leader" as 'sold more of a certain class forklift' in a certain market durring time period "a",, they then are the market leader in their market durring time period "a"...
I don't notice Toyota as a clear market leader in (very high dollar)  5 high full container handlers, nor do I notice all that many places selling Toyota x-ray machines, Toyota Cell phones, Toyota laser plasma cutters or Toyota flat panel TVs...  what's the reason for that,,, if Toyota is so all fired wonderful every where they touch? doesn't the world need really good X-ray machines, or plasma cutters?  

In my job, I _have_ to: "Ask any manufacturer about its environmental commitments and policy" and get it in writing, and all sorts of manufacturers and end users of forklifts have failed to mention to me any thing at all about Toyota's "environmental commitments and policy". I am willing to bet that not one fortune 1000 company that is not a Toyota subsidiary or vendor mentions Toyota in a bit of their documentation about their "environmental commitments and policy". I am positive I never see a single bit about Toyota in Sony's , Nokia's, Motorola's, GE's, Phillip-Morris', Microsoft's or Apple's environmental commitments and policy letters.
ALSO, what I said was NOT; "in your opinion it being a less intelligent method of attempting to equalize a negative for fear of uncertainty & doubt." This is a misquote by you Dave_j,  I guess it was not all that clear since I used the "w/" to shorthand what I meant, which was 'with'
So what I DID intend the reader to understand me to say was; "attempting to equalize a negative WITH fear, uncertainty & doubt." Do you see the difference now? Do you even recognize when you misunderstand and/or fail to clarify or change statements around to suit your own goals, how that is using F.U.D., and should/does lower your more discerning audience's expectations of honesty from a speaker that often misquotes? Do you recognize that some folks consider a misquote to be an intentional lie, since referring to, and correctly quoting someone is so easy to do. do you recognize that less intelligent or discerning audiences are the ones that fail to recognize FUD and mis-quotes? (not to mention how bad it is when folks reading your messages can not understand what you mean because you use so much "internet chat shorthand", like when -I- post).
I am of the opinion, the truth of it is this; if you define yourself, this is wise, and can be backed up with philosophical and religious beliefs from every major religion and line of philosophical thought, as well as (the most uncommon) common sense and observations, and can be determined as to the level of truth easily by any observer to the observer's own satisfaction. (one on one)
If you define someone else to a 3rd party, that is "hearsay" and (should be o

Modified 29 Jul 2007 10:46 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
LiftDuck
Tennessee, United States

 		I am going to jump in (I know a little late) with a couple of comments. First I have been in the lift truck industry since 1974 and have seen a few changes.. The first "Japanese" lift I saw in the US was a Yale built by
Sumitomo who still builds Hysters and Yales... I now sell a "Japanese" branded machine but allways use the terms US branded or  Japanese
branded as you can't tell where most parts come from... Clark is owned by a Korean hat maker, Cat/Towmotor is a Mitzi brand... I don't think any castings are US anymore, but south american or far eastern. Like it or not
the lines are blurrirng and we can't stop it.....

Posted 4 Aug 2007 7:11 AM Reply  Report this message
Marcel
Durban, South Africa 		If you feel that you jumped in late you can imagine me.
Well here i am just to tell you what jap forklifts mean in south africa. Here people like to buy cheap everythying. It must be a bargain and last forever at half the price of a Linde.  To my staff and myself jap forklift means good quality and technology at an afforable price to even the smallest bussiness owner. And believe me brother i am not kissing butt with the agents but the jap trucks are tough and good looking plus easy to work on and spares are dirt cheap.

Posted 9 Aug 2007 2:33 AM Reply  Report this message
Drlifttruck
Texas, United States

 		One Atta_Boy for Etharp!

Study one's history prior to opening mouth!


Way to go Ed!

Doc

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Lift Trucks are all the same, just painted a different color.......Regards, Doc

Posted 16 Aug 2007 10:40 AM Reply  Report this message
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