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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Safety, training & legislation
Discussion:  The Flexi and Double Pallet Handling Forklifts
Number of messages: 23
Page: [1] 2
START MESSAGE:
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		I have a client (I am an EH & S Consultant) who is considering getting two new, newly designed Forklifts.  One being "The Flexi" which is widely used in Europe and operates totally differently than our conventional Forklifts and the other is a "Double Pallet Handler" Forklift.  My concern is the current Operator Training which I provided to all of their Forklift operators would not be sufficient for these new units.  My concern and question is: Is anyone familiar with either of these units, have you used or do you use one and is there any specific training formats available for these units.  Thank you.

Posted 10 Aug 2011 05:54 AM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
joseph_h
Michigan, United States 		ICSConsulting -

You are correct that the previous training would not be sufficient for such forklifts. OSHA 1910.178, Powered Industrial Trucks, 1910.178(l) - Operator training requires specialized training in the forklift to be used and in the environment in which it will be used including the following:

1910.178(l)(3)(i) - Truck-related topics:

1910.178(l)(3)(i)(A)
Operating instructions, warnings, and precautions for the types of truck the operator will be authorized to operate;

1910.178(l)(3)(i)(M)
Any other operating instructions, warnings, or precautions listed in the operator's manual for the types of vehicle that the employee is being trained to operate.

Your best bet is to contact the forklift manufacturer to see what training material they may have available. At a minimum, obtain the operation and safety manuals from the manufacturer. I doubt if any canned programs exist which could meet the OSHA training requirements.


Posted 10 Aug 2011 09:47 AM Reply  Report this message
JrWarden
Ohio, United States

 		I would be glad to point you to a safety training vendor we recommend.

Posted 10 Aug 2011 10:19 AM Reply  Report this message
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		My original post was a little misleading.  I wanted to get some support and information on the need for "specific" training associated with the "Double Pallet" and "The Flexi" forklift units.  As a 30 plus year retired OSHA Compliance Officer and now a Private EH &S Consultant I was aware of the need for specific training (OSHA Regs.) but often when you show a client other individuals in the business such as member of this group who support your position the need is better accepted (Best Practices).  So thanks for the comments and the OSHA quotes and I agree.  What I really need is for someone who has and uses these units in their facility or warehouse.   The "Flexi" what I have found is widely used in Eruope but I have yet run across one until now.  As all of you know, forklift and workers (pedestrians) in a manufacturing setting don't alway mix well and is a "risk factor" which must be addressed.  The last thing I need is for this client is to introduce a "Newly Designed" forklift which has its own inherent risk concerns.  So, if anyone has comments on these two units, Likes, Dislikes, Risk, Improvements etc., I am very interested.  Many thanks.

-------------------------
John P. Leseganich, CPEA

Posted 10 Aug 2011 11:40 PM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		Are you referring to the Single/Double Fork attachment?

Posted 8 Sep 2011 10:38 PM Reply  Report this message
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		The "Double Fork" units are simply an attachment which mounts on a "Conventional" forklift.  I don't have to many concerns with these units (attachments) if used in an acceptable mannner and facility.  They do pose a problem when space is a concern and we found them to often be difficult when loading trailers.  Often the side by side pallets are too wide when removing from a trailer and the loads will hit, get stuck on the bay door seals (weather stripping cushions).  Another concern is the use of these double wides for the lack of any other term when removing or stacking pallets on racks.  They have their benefits, I guess, but again when forklift traffic, pedestrians and the activity vs allowed material storage, shipment space is a constant risk - battle;  the introduction of newer, different, units is not the answer.  Sorry for the leangth of the response, it is just I am not sold on either the "Double Stack" or "Flexi" at this time.  I am open for consideration and if proven useful can change my mind.

Posted 8 Sep 2011 10:49 PM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		We use the Single/Double in several of out facilites around the United States and our operators love them. It cuts the unload and load time down tremdously and we do store product in racking in several of our locations. As for operation, it is very easy to use and the training we have is a very nice video/manual/hands on program.  I have never heard it called Double Fork, so I hope that we are talking about the same unit. Ours are attachments that can have the 4 forks closed and utilized as a regular fork, or they can be expanded with the hydraulic controls and becomes 4 forks capable of picking up 2 pallets side by side.

Posted 8 Sep 2011 10:58 PM Reply  Report this message
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		I believe we are talking about the same type of unit:  The "Double Stack" - "Double Fork" units allows driver to use the same lift truck to handle either single or double pallet loads. Spreading the four forks allows handling of two pallets side by side. When brought together, the four forks convert to two forks ready for single pallet handling. As I said I am sure that they have thier benefits but here are a couple of my concerns with these units / attachmetns:  1.  When forklifts are used in areas also used for pedestrians (other workers) such as in a production facility, you need to ensure proper aisle share space.  Therefore if you are going to use or move loades twice as wide as a single, that space must increase.  Often there is no more space to add.  Therefore these units must then only be used in "designated areas", e.g. loading, warehousing.  So, if I can use a "single load" unit throughout the facility why would I want to introduce a unit which can only be used in a specific area.  The switching on and off would be a time concern.  Again, I am talking specifics here.  Our drivers load, unload and service produciton lines (with forklifts).  2.  The stability (as I watched loads being placed, removed) is somewhat of a concern.  Our product is light and a "soft touch" when handling is needed.  This isn't a big problem, but when "double pallet" handling the load simply doesn't appear that stable.  3.  I mentioned this before, but when removing a double pallet, often it simply is two wide to remove from older, aging, trucks.  The loads often get stuck or hit (damage) the dock side seal rubber units.  The operator needs to drop the load and remove them one at a time, again, making the double pallet unit back to a single pallset unit.  I guess to sumarize it I am not seeing a gain, at least in this specific situation.  Appreciate the input and would entertain others.  Thanks.

Posted 8 Sep 2011 11:17 PM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		You might want to contact the attachment manufacturer for assistance on the single - double pallet handler.

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Posted 9 Sep 2011 01:55 AM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		John, this is what I would consider. Can we afford the Single/Double and if so, you have it and since you can utilize it as a single or a double pallet handler you have it on the truck and cna utilize it in either capacity. There would be NO time lost due to changing from Single to Double as it is just the hydraulics that convert it from one or the other, NO need to change attachments. Just a thought, but reading your last post it seems you might have already decided that it not going to work for your environment.

Posted 9 Sep 2011 02:04 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		TC17,
My response was to the ICSConsulting guy that was looking for training on the use of a single-double pallet handler.  Me thinks your reply is best suited for him.  
Not an issue & it is Friday & all good folks in Wisconsin are looking forward to 5:01 PM, a little TGIF & a pint or two of "Milwaukee's Best" or that "Sky Blue Water" stuff made on the west side.  I lived in Chicago area & worked for the big Allis lift truck division once upon a time.

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Posted 9 Sep 2011 04:09 AM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		John R., I can see where the confusion is, but I clicked on the ICS guy and found out his name was John....I just did not like responding to him as ICS Consultant..... LOL.

Sorry for the confusion.....

Posted 9 Sep 2011 04:17 AM Reply  Report this message
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		LOL!  Well when I worked with OSHA I was called a number of things, but being the "ICS Guy" is the first...but I like it.  Yes my name is John and I appreciate all the input.  Problem with discussing concerns in "text" is that you don't have any tone, that is you can't really tell ones actuall opinion or concern and also when you type fast like I do, and think before typing...well your spelling and grammar is sometimes in question...as noted in some of the replies and my statements.  Anyway, I agree....this conversation would flow much better over a few beers, but it isn't Friday yet.................IS IT?

Posted 9 Sep 2011 04:22 AM Reply  Report this message
TC17
Wisconsin, United States

 		John (ICS), it feels like Friday here, with the hoopla of the NFL concert before the Packer/Saints game and then the game, there are going to be so many people in GB that traffic will become a serious issue..........they are prdicting as many people at the concert as at the game......glad I am staying home...
Hope you are able to decide if this Single/Double will work for you, because as I stated earlier, it is a great piece of equipment, if it can fit your facility work load.....

Posted 9 Sep 2011 04:44 AM Reply  Report this message
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		I will be at one of our local Casino's tonight playing in a Hol'm tourney and I am sure they will have the game on the Big Screen, so should be a good night at the Casino.  As for the Single/Double Lift, I can see their use but I would rather solve some of our other Forklift issues before introducing a new unit...oh well, nice Vet....I am somewhat of a "motor head", like my motorcycles and classics, buy, fix up, show and sale...just picked up...now hold on......a 1977 Ford Maverick..I know, not your typical "muscle car", but this thing is pretty clean, original owner, on a 1-10 comes in right around a 7-8 in condition.  Picked her up in Toledo, drove it home to Canfield, Ohio, about  a 200 miles trip, 70 MPH, straight and true...thanks for the comments, take care.

Posted 9 Sep 2011 05:09 AM Reply  Report this message
WTSIreland
Dublin, Ireland 		The Flexi truck is widely used in Europe and it is growing as a choice for customers. I have experience as both a customer and a trainer with these trucks. I found as a customer the equipment appears as great value for money on paper but when in practical operation our KPI and order picking times were seriously affected. The trucks should not be the only choice for a user as they are cumbersome when compared to other designs. As a trainer and safety provider I find these trucks dangerous and have yet to be won over to another view. It is a truck which is both a counterbalance and a reach truck. I am sure you aware the slight disorientation of operators when 'jumping' from one truck type to another but this is continual with the Flexi(Bendi). Drivers have difficulty in coordinating activities, even experienced operators. another point is that when the truck moves into a position in a narrow aisle I am unhappy with the weight vs counterweight movement as I believe that the stability triangle is compromised. If you need to see some videos of the trucks in operation they are available on the Bendi website.
I hope this helps.
Best of luck.
M.

Posted 29 Sep 2011 01:29 AM Reply  Report this message
johnr_j
Georgia, United States 		WTSIreland,
The European market has always been light years ahead of the US in VNA & other high density storage system & equipment.  The main rational is the US much more usable land mass.  So VNA solutions are slow  to catch on.  For example - the side loading lift truck is common in Europe and widely used in timber (lumber) yards for storage - in the US most timber (lumber) yards will used front loading 8-10K counterbalanced w/triple & side shift.  And there is an issue with insurance when inflammable (or flammable) products are stored close together = potential for greater loss = greater insurance premiums.
On the other hand, electric side loaders are or were commonly used in steel service centers in the US - China seems to be doing a lot of our metal stuff now..

-------------------------
"Have An Exceptional Day!"

Posted 29 Sep 2011 08:02 AM Reply  Report this message
WTSIreland
Dublin, Ireland 		John,

It is true that we utilise a greater range of trucks and mainly due to the european 'policy' of building up not out due to land availability. I do think that it is very successful and VNA trucks when managed correctly perform exceptionally well in regard to time, but this is dictated by the correct process flow and management of the warehouse. Front loader trucks are quicker but when greater land use is in play then distance to the pick up/drop off point also becomes a factor. Either way I was directing the conversation to the flexi truck. This truck will need more practical testing before I can convince myself that it is a viable option for warehousing.
M.

Posted 29 Sep 2011 05:52 PM Reply  Report this message
ICSConsulting
Ohio, United States 		WTSIreland, Thank you so much for your input.  Sorry for the delay in replying or reading all the post....been a little busy...anyway.  The Flexi was put into action and we already have had some concerns.  I am pleased to see or finally receive a comment from someone who has worked with these units.  I see some advantages to these units but I am not sold on them at this time......as for the "Safety Aspect" of them.   Your points or areas of concern are valid and again, thank you.  Any other comments on these units will be appreciated.  Many thanks.

-------------------------
John P. Leseganich, CPEA

Posted 3 Nov 2011 10:09 PM Reply  Report this message
WTSIreland
Dublin, Ireland 		No Problem. I hope it all goes well. I recently questioned two of the main suppliers for further information on the stability aspects of the trucks. I have not been completely happy with the replies but I was sent a training booklet. I found that this was fairly concise but the stability is still an issue. I have used and trialed these trucks in a logistics environment and found them slow and problematic. I don't think I would be happy training operators on them however.

Posted 4 Nov 2011 07:08 AM Reply  Report this message
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