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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Safety, training & legislation
Discussion:  Training Standards
Number of messages: 26
Page: [1] 2
ripoll
Spain, Spain 		Hi, it's a very interesting think, how many time, how much time training, haw many people in one course... . From Australia, NZ, till UK, France, Spain of course, nobody from government try to think seriously solutions.

Thats a problem to be resolved by professional trainers in lift trucks, not for functionary nor for lift trucks manufacturer.
They have another rol to play in the logistic activity.

Why, I'm about 40 years experience, and we can't forget the type of people , load, lift truck, environment, etc etc .

I apply PNL, Kirkpatrick system, EK, AAR, and we need no less than 20 till 40 hours to obtaint a LT driver whith capacity to work in no tense logistic flow, hi/she will need four months to obtain a excelent safe reflections.

We need the opinion of ours friends in UK beloning to the ITSSAR, LANTRA, RTITB. CITB, in France from INRS, SUVA from Suisse.  

I can send my programs for differents lift truck, Pemp's... sould be possible to do something in order to do standards really usefuls for drivers in order to reduce the fatality in all the world ?

Vicenç

-------------------------
people first

Posted 8 Nov 2004 11:12 PM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
gary_c
midlands, United Kingdom 		Im an employed instructor in the UK accredited by AITT/ITSSAR we go with the ACOP, L117and safety in working with lift trucks HSG6

Posted 15 Dec 2005 07:30 AM Reply  Report this message
ron_g
Queensland, Australia 		We have Australian training packages for FL operators from 25hr to an accredited 40hour course under the TDT package.
I delivered a 5 day practical and theory course to meet TAFE standards.
Regards
Ron GUI
Safety and Compliance Officer
FCL Interstate Transport Services

-------------------------
RG

Posted 23 Dec 2005 11:38 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		As Wayne mentioned, 8 hrs theory and 8 hrs practical is the suggested time frame.  As an independent trainer, I find it very difficult for companies to give me more than a day to have their staff trained.  I lose training sessions becuase there are those who will have their staff all trained and certified in 1/2 day or less, and thats including propane.  I don't understand it but as mentioned earlier, until the government gets off their duff and actively polices the industry, in Ontario, Canada, the motto is 'the faster, the better.

Posted 24 Dec 2005 11:28 AM Reply  Report this message
DANGEROUS
Queensland, Australia 		Training - What is good training ? What is bad training? How much should be given?  What Form should it take?  How often should it be given?
I Have been a  Trainer / Assessor as an Amateur 25 years & as a Professional  for 11 years  and I would like to share some of my observations with you all.
The majority of operators I have met are either self taught or taught by a colleague in the workplace & to a much lesser degree by a parent.
Hence there are lots of operators who have graduated from such a school that drive by the seat of their pants & have no understanding of load center calculations,Data plates or Stability triangle principals.
I am of the belief that all operators should have in their possession a "Training Course Achievement Record Book" that they must produce in order to get a job,Such a book would allow employers to see the true qualifications of the Applicant to be employed & also get a picture of his or her Training Needs.
There can never be too much Training given & should be given as often as possible.
David Hooper in this Forum indicated that the Quality of the Trainer & his or her material is very important & I concur 100 percent.
Should the Training be delivered "On Line","One on One" or in "Group sessions"????  -  Any Form has to be good!
However, "On line Training"  must be interactive and have a Fully Qualified trainer available on line to answer any questions that may arise, The problem lies in identifying who it is that is doing the tests, Is he or she doing it alone or getting help?
"Group sessions" are Ok but tend to hide the person who needs it the most in the multitude (The Group).
"One on One sessions" are the best way of  gaining true understanding by the student!
Regardless, for  Training to be effective it  must be verified by checks & cross checks conducted by an authorised Professional a "Master Operator" with practical  skills & theory Qualifications as well as subject knowledge & experience.
Our Government bodies in Australia are heralding a "New Era" in the Training & Assessment field by introducing "Registered Training Organisations".
Given a bit of time the Untrained & Ill Trained element will disappear, A new requirement by Government of 40 hours of supervised & recorded Training will be mandatory.
Earlier I said that Training  must be verified, Similarly I believe that Government Inspectors should be "Master Operators"specifically working in a single field & having been appointed to that position from that field.
What is the good of sending a carpenter to check on a plumber?
Knowledge & Experience is everything when it comes to Training.
Only through Training can the product damage & injuries be reduced & protection  from imprisonment ,fines & personal litigation be gained for Employers.


-------------------------
"OUR BUSINESS IS SAFETY"

Posted 2 Jan 2006 02:38 PM Reply  Report this message
joe_m
New Jersey, United States 		I believe that effective training of operators needs to be defined in terms of "verified OPERATOR'S on-job skills or behaviors", and NOT in terms of training hours, TRAINER skills, slick visuals or written test results.  

Why? Because some people learn faster than others, and the authority and "smooth talk" of the trainer, or the appearance of the visuals have little to do with  accident prevention among operators.  Also, because the root cause of the last fatality I investigated, or any serious injury I investigated was NOT that the operator failed to spend any particular amount of "hours in training" with the training expert.  The root cause was ALWAYS some human BEHAVIOR that, at the precise moment in time BEFORE onset of the incident, was defective in some way, or did not occur at all. So, what IS important, here.

So, in my opinion, it is most important to first describe WHAT behaviors on the job will keep the operator safe and productive.  Having described the on-job behavior in criterion-related terms then allows you, the instructor, to design precision training, provide on-truck practice activities, and then assess whether the operator is ready to be "certified" or if they need more practice (Hear, more time in training.)  This can make the difference between life and death.  

From this vantage point, any trainer can decide whether s/he are going to use the 8, 30, or 40 hour standard that is mandated by some government regulators, or if you are going to actually verify that the operator has actually acquired the on-job behaviors (skill) needed to keep him/herself safe and productive.

Using "time in training" as THE standard for "good" training is a grand waste of time, makes little sense to me and if you think about it, it probably makes little sense to most trainers serious about their work. (I'm happy that I'm NOT the one making the government regulation regarding  hours-in-training because its an embarrsing one.)   For more information  on this perspective, surf with keyword, LIFTOR.  Best wishes, Joe.

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Training for Precision and Speed of Operation = Safe and Productive Operators

Posted 20 Jan 2006 05:53 AM Reply  Report this message
kelly_k
North Carolina, United States 		Joe - Unfortunately, quality training is only half the battle - the other half is getting the employer to enforce the rules with regard to unsafe behavior and truck operations.  I have this discussion with my clients over and over, and it amazes me at the lack of follow-up the employers are willing to do.  

I recently had a conversation with an employer that had over $5000 USD damage to one of thier trucks, and they had four drivers logged on the machine that day.  None of the drivers would "own up" to causing the damage, and the employer did not "know" what to do about it.  Over two weeks had passed since the accident, and still no action had been taken.

When I suggested that they take their licenses and remove them from the trucks until they had all been retrained (since no one would say how the damage had occurred), as our Standard in the US requires, they looked at me like I was nuts and they had never heard of such a thing.  I spent the next half hour reviewing the regulations (once again) and reminding them that they were lucky it was just equipment damage and not a serious injury / fatality they were dealing with.

Part of training the Driver has to include training the Supervisors and HR on how critical and serious the job of reinforcing good behavior and addressing unsafe acts immediately is to safety success.  Enforcement of the rules is as critical as quality driver training in every program, and I would be happy to see enforcement guidelines similar to what we see when accidents occur in Motor Vehicles.

When I assist companies in writing plans for their Safety Manuals, I always try to get them to spell out the enforcement piece along with the training guidelines.  It takes the "guess work" out for HR and Supervisors and helps to reinforce the serious nature of safe truck practices.

Just my two cents worth.

-------------------------
"Paving the Road to a Safer Workplace!"tm kelly@osha-trainer.com

Posted 24 Jan 2006 03:45 AM Reply  Report this message
douglas_c
Florida, United States 		I agree, Kelly.  Too many companies want paperwork, so to speak, without insuring that the training is done adequately, thoroughly and just as important - it must be enforced equally and unilaterally.  I have had operators tell me that their only "training" was a guy who showed up, plugged in a video, told them to get him when the video was over, and then gave them a short test and that was it. The company just wanted something "cheap".  I like to speak with companies about their safety training, then watch their operators from a distance.  This shows who really takes training and safety seriously with a commitment, and who just talks about it.  Training programs without a complete buy-in, management support and enforcement are nothing more than window dressing.  When I talk with senior management and executives, I insure that I point out to them that unless they unilaterally inforce the rules of the company and the rules of proper operation, in order to hold operators and pedestrians responsible, the company can still have a HUGE exposure to liability. Let your customers know about the September 23, 2005 article by CNN Money/News that states "..of the 5,703 people killed in the workplace, nearly half are people who drive, or move materials for a living..forklift operators are in that group", and that the amount of "struck-by" accidents have increased by 12%, making "being stuck by equipment, or by a falling load the 3RD MOST COMMON CAUSE OF FATALITY IN THE WORKPLACE".  Companies MUST take this seriously, and the training needs to "hit home" with the operators as well as with management and supervisors. A properly trained and motivated operator is an asset to a company; not a liability.

-------------------------
Logic; the ability to think analytically with foresight, instead of hindsight.

Posted 27 Jan 2006 01:55 AM Reply  Report this message
safety_first
Queensland, Australia 		Its now interesting that the so called new method of the RTO's was around the southern states over about 15 years ago and they didnt work due to a vast variety of reasons, they then followed suit to our methods and all states refused to acknowledge the licences issued by these training bodies. Of course these RTO's train in a utopian environment so the trainee is NOT job ready and the employer still has to retrain the employee for his job site with associated hazards.

So the government goes around in a circle yet again!

It's also interesting that the new so called superior testing standards are down right unsafe and impractical.
How many of us know someone that is illiterate to degree but can turn a mountain into a billiard table, under this new system this guy would not get a licence as he has to get 100% in a written exam that could be 100 questions long. then he has to inspect a machine and again get 100% correct, if the machine it not fitted with a specific attachment he still has to remember and go through the motions of the checks on it also!

The new assessment instruments ask questions regarding parts and methods that are not even fitted to machinery, an example is how many of you have seen a stockpicker with a mast that tilts? or regarding stockpickers there is not even one question regarding harnesses!, and how man of you want a short armed skidsteer hanging a jib and suspended load over a trench?, bit close to the edge id say, anyone for a cave in?, yet the instrument examines this. Hell I would recommend prosecution for that unsafe practice.

Also under he so called new scheme the VET sector running the new system when questioned regarding how unemployed people can ain their licences without a job to log up the extra hours regardless of competency the answer given was, I guess they dont get a licence!

The RTO's are not the way to go, onsite training and assessment beats it hands down.

-------------------------
remember we all have a involvment in safety

Posted 4 Jul 2006 09:12 PM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		Douglas_C hit the nail on the head.  Companies are mainly interested in the record of training so they can say they have done their due diligence in spending the time/expense of having their people trained.  They don't care about the quality or effectiveness, they just want to be let off the 'hook' if something should happen.

I strive to provide the most effective training at a very cost competitive fee so the employers can rest assure that their staff have received superior and substantial training, only to be bounced by someone who is $20.00/head cheaper, and $500,000/head less worthy and competent to train.  

Employer doesn't care....my staff have their permits and I got the record of training.

Modified 4 Aug 2006 01:02 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
joseph_h
Michigan, United States 		DANGEROUS, ron g, and safety first:

Since you are from Queensland, Australia and have different views on RTO’s, etc., what are your reactions to the new revised Australian National Consensus Standard  - National Standard for Licensing Persons Performing High Risk Work April 2006? Do you think Queensland, Australia will adopt this standard?

Please respond in the Safety, Training & Legislation Forum under the Discussion: New Australian Advisory Standard includes Forklifts and Order Picker Trucks?  
Posted 14 Aug 2006 11:35 AM Reply  Report this message
DANGEROUS
Queensland, Australia 		joseph h
There are many honourable Safety Conscious persons who are trying to improve all documents & Standards involved with our industry.
Each state is being fiercely independant but are working to introduce new national standards.
The efforts in developing a new loadshifting (30496 Qld.)training & asessment package has been less than a huge success with mistakes rampant.
Your Question will be answerable in time with many twists & turns yet to be exposed.
Southern states ( on the grape vine) have unofficially expressed reservations about acceptance of the work done thus far.
Rest assured that  changes will take place in one form or another.
I liken it to a Texas Holdem poker game, each player is holding their cards close to their chest, each player is backing their hand and looking at the "Flop" & "Turn".
The only certainty is that the game goes on.
My only hope is that some good is finally achieved and that the "River" does not sink the whole shebang.
Please do not be too critical about our legislators, they are working hard to achieve a good outcome under difficult circumstances.
To repeat myself Time will reveal all & we will have to wait and see what the outcome is & when it will be reality.
I am personnaly disappointed with the escalation of the extra expence involved but I realise that safety is not cheap nor negotiable.
If it saves one life then the pain involved will be forgotten  and everything  worth the effort.

-------------------------
"OUR BUSINESS IS SAFETY"

Posted 14 Aug 2006 01:44 PM Reply  Report this message
mimmo_m
Ontario, Canada 		Hello, everyone,

Im looking to get my forklift license and i was wondering how much I should be spending on getting my license. Ive driven a forklift before and I do have my propane license.  Soo, how much should i be looking to spend in Canadian dollars these days to get the training someone would need.  

Ive seen a ad in the newspaper for a license that was $100, should i even bother going with them, or will it be sufficient.  Thanks for any input.

Posted 12 Sep 2006 06:13 AM Reply  Report this message
dan_m
Ontario, Canada 		Hi mimmo,

I am an independent trainer out of Ottawa.  I service many of the bigger name companies throughout eastern Ontario.

I do not know where you live in the province however expect to pay more if you are in the 401 corridor, weat of Belleville.  Those areas, Belleville to Windsor, can command a higher rate, say upwards of $325.00pp, CDN$$.  East of Belleville, into the Ottawa valley, the fees are considerably less.  The rates range in the upper end as high as $275.00, but the majority fall in the $100.00- $150.00 range.

Dealers tend to be much higher, and in many cases, not as proficient as independents, however there are independents who are not that great either.

At the low end, usually the trainer is hungry for $$$$.  Sometimes it is only a second job and they may repair forklifts, or even groom dogs, as their priority.

Email me.  Go to the marketplace, do a search for Canada, and category Business Management, Training, scorll down to Ideal Forklift Training, and maybe I can help you out.

Goood Luck.

Danny

Posted 13 Sep 2006 11:56 AM Reply  Report this message
randal_s
Nova Scotia, Canada 		I would like to take exception to the biased opinions of Dan M. There are some excellent "Dealer Trainers" in Atlantic Canada and I would stack any of them up against Independant Trainers any day, yes it is true there is not as much flexability in pricing as getting a cheap price from an independaant on a hungry day but I am not convinced that Independants have access to the latest safety information and technological advances that Dealer personel have. There is more good to say about being a Dealer Trainer than drawbacks. Dealerships tend to be in buisness for longer periods of time, tend to cary larger liability insurance and will definately be in court with you if required God Forbid.

Posted 17 Sep 2006 03:58 AM Reply  Report this message
randal_s
Nova Scotia, Canada 		Hi Dan

Just to set the record straight

Service technicians are highly trained, educated people who in most cases have a very strong commitment to safety and knowledge of the safety devices and equipment installed on lift trucks. What a scarry thought if the person servicing your lift truck did not know how to install, service or test that factory or aftermarket safety device. The knowledge and skill does not usualy stop when the wrench is placed back in the tool box.

There is a proven track record of technical personel having all the skills required to provide top notch operator training with a safety commitment to back it up.

Posted 17 Sep 2006 04:49 AM Reply  Report this message
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