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Fast charging for forklifts

Number of messages: 35
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alex_s
California, United States

Anybody using this equipment? Does it work?

Posted 24 Mar 2006 10:55 AM

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tweeker
Ontario, Canada

We are also looking into this concept Alex, not sure how much of a rush your in for the info but we may be using it by June.We are going wire guided,and fully automated ( no driver) with a Hyster V35 type turret truck,and are looking at the fast charge idea.As far as i know its fairly good, and it eliminates the use of spare batterys, changing stations, etc.As we get up to speed, Ill keep you informed
Tweek.

Posted 25 Mar 2006 01:48 PM

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alex_s
California, United States

thanks - interested in your experience with selection and application of a fast charger

Posted 28 Mar 2006 11:27 AM

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mike_n
Alberta, Canada

Me too please.

Posted 3 Apr 2006 02:47 PM

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Tdanley
Michigan, United States

I know a company that has over 2000 fast charge trucks in service. It has it in several different plants but the plants are also UAW plants. If you can manage your drivers to ensure they do what is right (which can't be done at a UAW plant) it will and can work.

Posted 19 May 2006 04:27 AM

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nhorsley
British Columbia, Canada

The fastest charging is with fuel cell power packs - 3-5 minutes. A Class I forklift will run up to 18 hours without voltage drop off. A similarly-equipped AGV can run for 27 hours. The niche where this works, on an economic basis, is high-use, multi-shift operations. Of course, all the conventional charging infrastructure is done away with.

-------------------------
'Roll on to the Hydrogen Age!'

Posted 25 May 2006 08:52 AM

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justinm
New York, United States

nhorsley, whats the cost on those hydrogen packs and how well are they hindenberg proofed?

Posted 29 May 2006 09:53 AM

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nhorsley
British Columbia, Canada

Precise price information is, you'll appreciate, confidential in that there are competitors who would like to know too. As I previously mentioned, it works in a high-use, multi-shift environment where there are fleets of electric forklifts with an average payback of around 3 years. In the US, the new tax incentives ($1,000 per kW) for 2006/2007 will impact by shaving off about 1 year.
The power pack is inherently very safe for a number of reasons it would take too long in a short blog to explain fully - internal sensors, the tight packing of componentry (leaves very little space), through movement of air, and the inherent safety of the all-composite tank all contribute to outstanding safety aspects.
As an aside, the operators of forklifts with fuel cell power packs enjoy being able to wear shorts again instead of long pants as many have had to do with conventional lead-acid batteries which can get very hot during discharge.

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'Roll on to the Hydrogen Age!'

Posted 29 May 2006 10:20 AM

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tbird
California, United States

To answer the original question: Yes, fast charging is being used.It has been used successfully for over 7 years and in over 100 facilities. Fleet sizes vary from 4 trucks up to over 300 trucks used 24 hours a day. Multiple voltages (24-80 volt) can be used on fast charging systems also.
As for hydrogen systems, they have yet to prove themselves over time in a real world application. The test units have been good and the technology is advancing. But would you risk the money and potential downtime if they don't perform as expected?

Posted 31 May 2006 02:14 AM

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don_c
Utah, United States

Guys and Gals:
Fast charging in NOT new. Some of the first patents were clear back in the 60's. What is new is the HOGWASH sales pitch that most of these companies are coming up with in order to sale their product. In an effort to decrease charging times, most battery charger manufacturers have seeked to increase the amount of electrical current into a battery. This concept is complicated by the fact that the amount of energy a battery can absorb, changes as it is charged. If one would take the time to check the us patent office for patents on this subject, you will find that most of the current chargers are still that of a ferro-resonant or rectifier design or technology. The only thing that has really changed is the delivery or the control of the delivery of electric current. The current "FAST CHARGE" craze in nothing really to do with savings or performance increase of chargers or batteries but saving in labor and space. These companies are trying to reset the standards of acceptance by Battery International for allowed higher heat temperatures and lower percentage of charge capacity of the name plate ratings in order justify their systems. Another trick they are using is to increase the gage of cable and splitting battery into two sections in order to power- in more amps. In most cases you can accomplish what their expensive systems do with regular chargers and minor adjustments. What is being overlooked is the damage and added maintenance costs these system are causing to the equipment they are being placed in because of high heat standards (55C) and poor maintenance. Soon you lift truck won't be running because of component failure caused by heat not lack battery charge. And what about the real savings... are they using less electricity out of the wall... are their units more efficient, conserving energy ? And now what about Hydrogen ? Well, this is the future but the future is NOT here YET !
Some of the obstacles that are needed to be addressed and considered are 1: Price 2: by- product problems such as water creation etc (can't product water in cold storage applications) and 3: Safety ! remember all you need is a 4% mixture of hydrogen and a spark to cause some problems.
There are other alternatives currently NOW available, but you need to find them, but remember don't get caught up with the snake oil salesman......

Posted 2 Jun 2006 05:58 AM

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nhorsley
British Columbia, Canada

The Hydricity power packs are a commercial reailty now, but the immediate market niche is strictly multi-shift 5/7 day a week operations with fleets of Class I and II forklifts.

The water leaves the pack as a vapour and not as a liquid so it's not an issue in cold storage.

The packs have been designed with absolute safety in mind at every step of the way.

-------------------------
'Roll on to the Hydrogen Age!'

Posted 2 Jun 2006 07:26 AM

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don_c
Utah, United States

Bravo nhorsley if the packs and systems are now available.... we have been waiting for this for a long time.... however the issue of the water is a factor whether it leaves the pack as vapour or liquid in cold storage and will need more clarification to get my vote.... and I agree the packs have probably been designed with absolute safety in mind but what about the other concerns that manufacturers of equipment have etc. I would like to hear more.... and how many actual full fleets are in service and what pro's and what con's are they experiencing /

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discipline, empathy and integrity

Posted 2 Jun 2006 09:30 AM

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mick_m
Pennsylvania, United States

Does Fast Charging Work? That would be answered with an absolute yes! EnerSys has 400 + applications that are using this concept. One customer has aver 1500+ chargers in their UAW facitities.

The biggest concept to learn and use is:
One Charger, One Battery and One Truck.

Fast Charging requires dedication from Upper Management as well as the Floor Level Management to work.

Regimented break times are required. Fast charging is not Hocus Pocus but if you don't use your REQUIRED break times to charge the battery, then you will run into runtime and application issues. My recommendation is to contact your local EnerSys Sales / Service Office or to e-mail me to get more information or to discuss your needs.

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A great charger can make a bad battery look better, but a bad charger will destroy any battery!

Posted 6 Jun 2006 00:39 AM

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Tdanley
Michigan, United States

Anyone could say that it works. Of course it works, however what are the consequences. Connectors, electrical components of equipment, acid spills, watering system failures. Plus you have to pay for the installation of the equipment. Anyone who does it will learn the truth. So yes, it works. Just be prepared for all the other stuff that doesn't work and all the crap that can go wrong. But, learn for yourselves.

Posted 6 Jun 2006 02:51 AM

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nhorsley
British Columbia, Canada

Don. Not in fleet numbers yet - singletons now but small multiple lots starting soon. The power pack performed fine in refridgerated conditions. However, it has not been tested in working conditions down to minus 20 degrees C, although we anticpate it will work well with it switching itself on to warm the fuel cell should it chill to those temperatures. We have a unit in a forklift at a military base in North Dakota where winters get extremely cold. The main concerns remain the typical ones of reliability and longevity. Currently the Hydricity Packs are warranted for 5,000 hours/2 years. The Ballard Mark9 fuel cell, at the heart of system, is the best in the world right now in this application. In bus use, it has racked up over 2.4 million kms in real world conditions. The Maxwell ultracapicitors are similarly incredibly robust.

-------------------------
'Roll on to the Hydrogen Age!'

Posted 7 Jun 2006 11:24 AM

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justinm
New York, United States

until they can fully dummyproof it to being as simple as hooking up an LPG tank (they screw that up 2) operators/cheap manegment will wreck everything electric every step of the way
i love the guy that tells me he needs a truck to work 16 hours on 1 charge,never check the water and he dosnt understand y the battery just threw up and all his contactor tips and switches are all burnt

Posted 13 Jun 2006 01:32 PM

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alex_s
California, United States

5000 hours and 2 years fuel cell life seems awfully short for typical lift truck leases. Does this mean you have to replace the whole fuel cell? And this replacement cost is included in your 3 year payback mentioned in an earlier post?

Posted 23 Jun 2006 02:18 AM

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alex_s
California, United States

I hear fast charge tubular batteries run hotter than flat plates in fast charge but cost TWICE as much as so they can give a 4 year warranty

Posted 23 Jun 2006 02:23 AM

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Tdanley
Michigan, United States

Alex, most all batteries will run hot in a fast charge application. In our 3000+ installations (that is 3000 fork trucks running on fast charge) we average 118-130 degrees F. We have several, very large facilities running on the system that no longer have a battery room. There have been a lot of issue that were not told to us when the bought the sytem. We have learned ourselves these issues and designed our own system and just now after 3 years are getting to the point it is a good system. There is a huge learning curve.

Posted 23 Jun 2006 02:55 AM

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mick_m
Pennsylvania, United States

There are a lot of negative comments being thrown around out there about fast charging.  The biggest comment that I can make is that you need to buy a Fast Charge Package.  A package system is a battery designed and built for fast charging along with a dedicated charging system, a watering system and a company that is going to monitor your fast charge application so that it continues to work without major problems.  Training and change are always an issue with new applications.  Take Gas (IC) to electric truck conversions.  You need a TOTAL commitment from upper management as well as the average Joe in the Warehouse or working facility.
Otherwise everyone complains that they want to stay with IC's.  The company hurts from not being proactive and training their personnel as to why they are changing.  The air will be cleaner, less noise pollution and yes less truck maintenance and the electric trucks are cheaper to operate.  A win / win situation for the company.

Fast charge is the same.  You need a training program and commitment from all personnel and management.  Does fast charging get batteries hotter?  Yes but batteries that are maintained in a higher state of charge (SOC) will run cooler than batteries operated at deep discharges or low SOC.

Tubular batteries have higher capacities and therefore tend to operate at higher SOC than flat plate batteries.  A battery specialist needs to explain all of the advantages, such as one inch post with copper inserts, copper inserts in intercell connectors and other advantages.  Flat plate batteries just aren't designed for fast charging, because they are a low cost generic product that all American battery manufacturers make and sell.

The biggest concept of the total package is the ongoing relationship and the maintenance of the total package.  When you buy a Porsche, you will get your Porsche serviced by a local Factory Authorized Representative to maintain it.  Unfortunately a lot of people strictly by on cost and want to cut as many corners as possible, even with a higher technology as fast charging.  I've seen fast charge applications that fail after a year, because the customer didn't buy a package.  He bought a battery from one company and a charger from another company and no data collection or monitoring of the application from anybody.  Everbody points fingers at these failures generally.  The comments that I usually hear are from the charger people that say," well no one paid for any data collection so the customer fell off our radar".  Sad but a true commentary.  I can tell you that we are in it for the long haul, because we sell the battery, the charger and the service and we want to sell the future batteries.  So we want a happy customer.  The independent charger companies only sell the chargers once and they really have very little to benefit directly from one customer.  Maybe a national customer they probably take better care of, but a small customer is left to service that is questionable.

My recommendation to people looking at Fast Charging is to ask the following questions:

Do you sell and maintain the whole package?
Where is your LOCAL service representative located?
If someone has to fly to your area, they are too far away.
Remember in fast charge, when a battery or charger goes down.  At least one truck won't run. if your charger isn't dedicated to a truck then more than one truck goes down when a charger goes down.
......last sentence clipped by Admin.....deemed to be advertising....Cheers, Forum Admin

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A great charger can make a bad battery look better, but a bad charger will destroy any battery!

Modified 10 Sep 2007 01:41 PM
by administrator.

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