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DISCUSSION FORUMS : Forkliftaction.communicate
Forum: Industry News & Whispers
Discussion:  *Important*...Mechanics, Customers, Independants, Etc. Please read
Number of messages: 94
Page: [1] 2 3 4 5
START MESSAGE:
forkliftservice
Washington, United States 		I ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS POST so that I can forward it to the people that need to hear it, and that can hopefully help promote a much needed change.

As I am sure we are all aware of the situation regarding the material handling industry and each manufacturer having their own software and passwords, and if you are not aware of it you will be affected by it sooner rather than later probably. (Read below for a little more information regarding it, if you are unfamiliar).

I am in the process of puting this together so that I can bring it to MHEDA (Material Handling Equipment Distributors Association) and other associations I feel could help resolve this issue, to see if we can get a much needed change in our industry. Some may agree with this and some may not but the truth of the matter is that we all continue to hurt ourselves and probably the customer the most by the way we are doing things.

Currently, most, if not all manufacturers’ have set up their own software programs, cables, handsets, cords, pass codes etc. to work on their machines, now some of them work on another make or model occasionally but for the most part they are specific to that manufacturer's machine. The problem with this way of doing things is that it is making it increasingly difficult for a customer to choose who they would like to work on their equipment. With most of the dealers in my area refusing to sell the handsets, software, give pass codes etc. I understand the need for making money and I understand the benefits of not giving that software/information to your competition/customer that may do their own repairs. But my bottom line is this: The customer should have the choice of who they want to have service/repair their equipment and should not feel like they are not given a choice of who they can use by only being able to use the dealer no matter what they charge, or what customer service experience they offer etc.  I have personally spoken with several customers that do not want the dealer of their make/model of equipment on their property at all (even going as far as paying other people to do non software needed work on their machine when it is under warranty even though they could have gotten their machine fixed for free). Then there are others customers that have stated to me that right now they are struggling badly and cannot afford to have the dealer of their machine do the work because they are the most expensive in the state but cannot find anyone else that has the software etc. so they feel they have no choice. Even others that cannot afford the 3 or 4 day (or sometimes longer) wait time to have the dealer of their specific machines come to repair them.

There are a lot of ways/backdoors to get the software, cables, handsets, passwords etc. that you need but it isn't always possible and it wastes time and causes un-needed frustration. I've spoken with several dealers that are torn on this because in some of their locations it benefits them because they have the majority share of the market and in other locations it hurts them.

I am not saying there are not a lot of factors involved in the way things have been done so far: liability, legality etc. But there has to be a way that we can change this for the better (like the automobile industry has) I think the main difference between us and the automobile industry is that there are not 5 material handling dealers for the same machines (ex: Hyster, Toyota etc) within the same territory or just down the street from each other.  There is typically only one Material Handling dealer per make per state/territory and if a company’s corporate sends a certain make of machine or if you just like the quality of a certain machine better than the others and you do not like the dealer for that machine in your territory you should not feel that you have no choice but to use them.

Bottom line the automobile industry tried to keep the software and password proprietary in the beginning and it worked until people like all of us (small businesses, independents, customers, etc) stood up and said ‘enough’.  And now I am saying: ‘enough.’  Will this affect my business in a negative way… yes it will, will it affect my business in a positive way... yes it will, but the bottom line is the customer should have the ability to choose who is right for the repair of their machines. I shouldn't, as a dealer, get to choose and neither should any other dealer or manufacturer.

My entire goal for this, is for it to be a main topic that we can all get together about and find a better solution for all of us and for the customers.

Print and send this (or refer them to this posting) to as many people as you know (customers, mechanics, independents, dealers, etc.) so that everyone is aware  and able to hopefully help make a change in our industry.

I appreciate your time and look forward to your responses, There is alot of people effected by this and if we come together we can make a change.

Posted 29 Jan 2010 02:10 AM Reply  Report this message
REPLIES: Sort replies by
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		i am very happy to see someone attempting to resolve this nightmare. i will personally pass this on to every industry contact i can think of and would be glad to contribute to any legal action that may be available. my hat is off to you sir....salute....

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technology: (no user serviceable parts inside)
















Posted 29 Jan 2010 11:57 AM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		in 2002 to 2004, when tier 1 and then tier 2 Carb regulations were first implemented for "large spark ignited engines, above 25 horse power", (which is how the regulation addresses forklift motors), I know the Technical communicators and trainers working for MCFA dealers addressed this same subject and concern with MCFA service engineering management.
There was no real clear directions from MCFA, at that time, that said any thing like "only dealer techs can have this software", only that the reasoning had to do with the C.A.R.B. regulation's definitions of "tamper proof" and the regulations requirements for the manufacturers to only allow properly trained and certified as competent people to repair and replace components, to insure compliance with specifacions for the required time frames and that the components would be -correct- fit, not "will fit".
It is my understanding that since that point, other manufacturers, or their dealer principals, had defined the regulation considerably more narrowly, and so other dealers had followed suit, with an abundance of concern to correctly follow the regulation and "industry standards".
I am also pretty sure that the pricing from the OEMs for the required training, software and cabling is not so much "what the market will bear", as it is a normal % markup from what the vendors charge, in other words, what it costs the OEM to provide. Consider how much Microsoft gets for a DVD. The DVD and packaging may only cost 4 US dollars, but they justify $400.00+ for "Office" applications based on the expense of the creation of that same software, and they are selling hundreds of thousands, not hundreds like a forklift OEM.    
I would also like to make a note that not all manufacturers have the same rules, but I know that MCFA had a design requirement that only a very minimum amount of items require the software (etc.) for repair, only those items that would effect the safety or emissions components require the software, even the fault codes can be retrieved and most of them cleared without the software, that the software (etc.) does not really "fix" very much. having the software and cabling does not replace good understanding of the systems, and by no mean is a panacea.
Just because it has a place to hook up a computer does not mean that only with a computer or even that you need a computer for you to fix the forklift.      
I would also note that this problem (dealers not willing to sell compition cables to access the controls of the truck) did NOT start with CARB, and had existed in some brands of electric forklifts for years before 2003, when tier 1 carb became effective

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webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Modified 29 Jan 2010 09:41 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
forkliftservice
Washington, United States 		That is the problem.  No one is holding the manufacturers and dealers to the same rules. Some of the software, cables, handsets, passwords etc. can be a couple hundred dollars and some are multiple thousands and everyone has different criteria as to who can buy what and most require you send a letter to the manufacturer stating things like how many machines you have and what the serial #'s are, the reason you want it (I think this is the funniest of all. Why I want it. . . well let’s see, maybe because I want to fix mine or my customer’s machines) and pay for training, and then I have to wait to see if they decide to approve me ( that’s right, apparently the manufacturers get to decide if you are approvable or not to sell to). Why is it then that the excuse is to meet CARB etc. that anyone can go on the internet and buy the spectrum software and tinker with several of the manufacturer’s systems. If I buy a machine I should have the right to have anyone I want including myself be able to repair that machine , now if I try to repair it and screw something up then I guess that is my fault and I just voided the warranty and that is the same way it is in the auto industry.

The electric machines are in the same situation and it isn’t even because of CARB reasons. So I would actually like to know what the justification is behind these machines if it isn’t for CARB reasons, and that is exactly why I have started this, so that hopefully we can get some changes and some answers and make it an even playing field.

Bottom line: the truth is this, our industry tends to follow the auto industry so it is just a matter of time before what I am attempting to do here will come to pass. The only question is: will it start to happen now, or will it be in a couple years and make things more difficult to do and have more drastic effects on everyone’s business’
Posted 30 Jan 2010 03:26 AM Reply  Report this message
DAVE160
yorkshire, United Kingdom 		in 2011 the new tier iiii crab regulations come into force , we as a new manufacture have taken time to incorperate these new enginges into our trucks as standered. Our dealers and other dealers will have to invest in training there personel on all new types of enginges . Some times dealers intoday's market only make money on the service they can offer,so by letting smaller companies into there systems could mean they lose money .The main point i'm trying  make is that with out this protection dealers will not want to invest in the training neaded so customers will lose out even more. Customers who rent or buy new trucks should look at the dealer first.On trucks under 20,000kg many of the componants are the same so customers when looking at a truck go on price . If a customer dose not like the dealer for what ever reason but likes the truck then they should contact the manufacture about there problems , Manufactures want and need to sell trucks so if a lot of custmers go to them with dealer problems these could be looked at.

Posted 2 Feb 2010 09:12 PM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		forkliftservice says; "The truth is this, our industry tends to follow the auto industry"
to which I reply; ahhh, nope. Just because we use internal combustion engines with torque converters and tires doesn't mean we follow them, just because they produce millions of units and we produce thousands doesn't mean they lead us. I don't see very many motive electric or LPG fueled cars at all and yet this is an ever increasing part of our markets. This part of your argument is false and should not be included in our reasoning.
I am very strongly of the opinion that what "our industry" -follows- is what the end-user thinks they are willing (or required to compete in business) to pay for.
NOW to that "reasoning".
Is it possible for you to clearly put what you would like to see happen in 1 paragraph, that is expressed from an "end-users advantage" viewpoint, that does not sound like "give away stuff to allow -me- to make some of your money"?  


-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Posted 2 Feb 2010 10:29 PM Reply  Report this message
mrcoolkid
Arizona, United States 		I agree w/ this post and anything i can do to help it along i'll try and help.  I have 2 8k cats and 1 5k cat and i tried to get the software from the dealer and he said they don't sell it.  Me and my crew do all the maintenance on the forklifts.  But when it comes down to the VCM or ECM problems i have to call the cat dealer.  Thats an automatic $300 for them to drive to me and then they're time on top of that.  The last problem i had w/ the 5k cat i rebuilt the vaporizor and they had to come down and hook the computer up just to reset the cpu because it went to limp mode i'm told.  It cost me $500.  Thats just rediculas.  They need to rethink they're laws because if I had the sofware i could have done it myself.  They don't have to make everything accesible to the end user just the stuff that would make it easier and cheaper to work on.

Posted 3 Feb 2010 05:41 AM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		mrcoolkid, had you considered purchasing and reading the service manual, (or asked here, among other places) you would have found out that there is a procedure to clear the codes on  Catibishi and Mitsupillar machines that does not require the computer, and can clear all the codes except the ones related to the pedals, (since it requires timed action of the accel pedal).
I am impressed that you were able to "rebuild the vaporizer" as it is considered/required to be "tamper proof" and has special security screws. I would also note that a lot of the items related to the emissions systems (in the USA anyway) have considerably longer hour warranty than most of the rest of the truck, but if -you- mess with it, -you- void the warranty anyway.  
I know this problem is not just with Catibishi and Mitsupillar machines, as I think the NACCO brands dealers have about the same difficulties in sharing their software and permitting end users to purchase the cabling. I do know of some end users that have negotiated training and permission to purchase cables to hook up with when they purchased the trucks.
I think it might be very valuable to know what brands don't have such a close lock on the ability to access and setup the emissions control computers, and maybe the independent techs should work towards pushing customers toward purchasing those brands. I think that would more likely do something to motivate manufacturers than almost anything else we could do here, should the manufacturers notice the resale value of their product is less than some other brand.

-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Modified 3 Feb 2010 07:04 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
Wind Breaker
eab, United Kingdom 		Its a bit of a myth that people think you need a laptop to fix  a forklift 95% repairs dont need a laptop to fix it a laptop is more of a prep tool for setting up the truck or adding new software  what you do need is the service manual which lists the fault codes and how to go about fixing them.
Everyones in the same boat even the big dealers because they have the same problem in fixing the competitors trucks.
Unfortunatley in this day and age with all the technolgy on all modern equipment its not so easy now for a mechanic to change jobs and hit the ground running you have to get trained up on the brands you are working on.
I

Modified 3 Feb 2010 05:34 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		I have to agree with you Eddie2, and I kind of think that was part of the reasoning when MCF* put a page in the truck's operator's manual (that goes with -each- truck) that lists out the codes and a short explanation for the codes.
Although I am not all that sure that it is a bad thing that we have to get "trained up" on the brands we work for, after all, we are supposed to be the "experts" on those brands, and that is at least part of the reason we can demand a little more money for our services. I am not sure I want to be the lowest -price- option for service, more that I want to be the most cost effective option.
and besides, it it was _easy_, someone else would get to do it.

-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Modified 3 Feb 2010 11:20 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
beast411
Minnesota, United States

 		it seems like a bunch of complaining  to me.  It's a cost of doing business.  Live with it.    


Posted 4 Feb 2010 10:14 AM Reply  Report this message
Drlifttruck
Texas, United States 		You may want to check out the 2007 Off Road LSI and CSI rulings that are taking us to where you wish to be.  That ruling requiures Off Road Engine Mfg.(s) to use standard OBDII coding on their DTC reporting.

Good Grief, more Rookies here.

Oh what the Hell California, the ones that brought this on in the first place.

Contact me if you wish.

Doc

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Lift Trucks all the same, just painted different colors.
Doc
Email: kulsh@forkliftservice.net

Posted 4 Feb 2010 03:03 PM Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

 		Drlifttruck, this only applies to IC units and not in building electrics. Only half the problem may be solved with this ruling. Also it would be wise for purchasing managers to inquire into the servicing of said units prior to buying them. Most salesman wont go into details on this subject, and will defer to the service managers for the answers. Long story short, dont buy propriatary software forklifts. Toyota's sitdowns and Crowns new C5 are prime examples of next generation units that dont require a laptop or handset to troubleshoot or repair. With the pending release of the 8FBCU line from Toyota, they have still from what I have heard, made all troublshooting thru the display. The anti-trust laws that quickly leveled the playing field within the automotive industry has yet to happen for most forklifts sold within the United States.  I have yet to see any OBD type unit sold here locally. We are still a few years away from any next generation forklift with what you have described. Do your homework.

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Fix it right!!!

Posted 4 Feb 2010 11:12 PM Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

 		Another point to make is if your an independant, you must show this ball and chain to your customers. If they voice their opinions at the factory level, it may not change the world, but it may change a small part of yours. Also to the guys below who state the only thing you need is a manual and skill, I dare you to troubleshoot a Loadlite Raymond or GDP Komatsu or a Veracitor emissions code. Good luck!! I know how to read schematics, and I'm pretty good on theory of operation, but to do without the hanset or the laptop gauratees two things. One, I'm probably going to buy a part I did not need, and two, its going to take me 3 times the amount of labor to figure it out.  Thats not a good scenario for an independant, and was inherantly part of the R+D of the forklift from a revenue standpoint for dealerships to begin with.

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Fix it right!!!

Posted 4 Feb 2010 11:27 PM Reply  Report this message
Liftdoctor
Indiana, United States 		IBM created the PC where everything was standardized.  You could go down to the local computer shop and find parts to fit in the box and work.  Look what happened to IBM.  Don't look for the manufacturers to spend their R and D money to build a lift make it so anyone can work on it. It isn't going to happen.  The only reason parts and service info on cars is so readily available is because the government makes them do this.  Specifically, the EPA makes sure anyone can fix an emission problem on a car and mandates that the manufacturers make the service info availalbe to fix the car (at a price).  

Forklifts and a piece of industrial equipment.  The manufacturers are not going to give away the info to fix them any more than the manufacturers of a printing press, a stamping machine, or a CNC mill.   They want return on their millions spent on R and D.  

Not that I would not favor some standardization so I can fix all brands of trucks.  I am just saying it will not happen.

Mr Forkliftservice, I don't believe you are correct in saying that techs like us made the automobiles serviceable by everyone.  I think that if the government did not mandate the auto manufacturers to make service info available, you could not get the info.  It would be just like working on a forklift.  I believe there are regulations about making part specs available for cars.  This is why 10 to 20 % of the aftermarket stuff I put on forklifts does not fit.  Most everything I buy aftermarket for my cars fit.  It may be of questionable quality, but it fits.

Modified 5 Feb 2010 12:58 AM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		excelent point on the IBM reference however i do think that (big bro) will step in and standardize the data aquisition / interpretation of the emmision systems in the lift truck industry (at least the IC side) and for the exact same reasons as the auto side. a good example of why is the TUSK dilema. what happens to adherance to federal emmision standards when the manufacturer is defunct. i know that Tusk will continue to have support for the short run but it is a lead pipe cinch that some of the current manufacturers will go away. even though in my opinion global warming is a huge scam it has a hysterically insane following and they will ensure that emission standards get more restrictive every year.

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technology: (no user serviceable parts inside)
















Posted 5 Feb 2010 01:22 PM Reply  Report this message
edward_t
South Carolina, United States

 		As we all may have heard, "the devil is in the details", and your analogy about IBM is not all that detail correct.
The ISA bus in PC computers (which is now obsolete, because it was an 8 bit and later expanded into a 16 bit) was the spec that IBM allowed to be "released into the wild" after IBM had moved to the "microchannel" bus which was indeed propitiatory to IBM PCs and was a 16 bit (later 32bit) bus.
It was the failure to follow the rest of the industry into EISA, and an attempt to "force" the market to use only IBM add in components on IBM PC computers that allowed Compaq and others to gain the market share that was taken away from IBM.
Almost none of the loss IBM's market had very much to do with the technical end of this, as this was primarily of importance to really geeky people (like the kind of folks that like to know all about electric powered forklift controls) and people playing games on their PCs (who were the ones wanting to upgrade whatever computer they had so they could play the next great game, something I also call "big hard drive envy" :-) ).
IBM lost market share because of marketing (advertising) and [mainly] pricing.
I am a very big advocate for "open standards" which is what I think we are leading this discussion towards clarifying what it is we are wishing for, and we already have considerable "open standards" and even a "standards body" (the industrial truck standards development foundation= ITSDF, can be found at itsdf.org).
Perhaps a real answer would be to petition iITSDF to push for an OBD2-E (or OBD4-E) inclusion in the next update of b56.1.
I would personally like to see it be a wireless IPV6 ieee802.11n compatible standard myself, and I bet that a bunch of people in the "supply chain management" and "fleet management" [in other words; the end users of newer machines] IT functions might think the capabilities included in such a standard would make who ever adopts it very attractive selling point.      
The biggest problem I foresee with that is that it makes it only a 1/2 baby step towards not requiring operators, (and where would -we- be without damaged forklifts) and about 1/4 baby step towards not requiring any sort of diagnostic ability to fix forklifts. Next up, automatic oil changes and lubrication that only requires insertion of a grease tube into a holder 1 time a year.

-------------------------
webhome = http://forktechs.com
"it's not rocket surgery"

Modified 5 Feb 2010 11:36 PM
by poster. 		Reply  Report this message
chublil
California, United States

 		Killer idea Ed, Im working on the grease tube design as we speak!!! Funny stuff!!!

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Fix it right!!!

Posted 5 Feb 2010 11:59 PM Reply  Report this message
forkliftservice
Washington, United States 		In response to several of the statements here:

1. I am not saying that our industry copy cats the automotive industry at all, obviously we are a completely different industry. What I am saying is that we tend to follow behind them (which makes sense due to the volume differences that there is between ours and theirs) but we "typically" still end up being held to the same standards (usually because of the government) such as emissions control etc. so what I mean is that it is almost inevitable that some day someone will cause a big enough stink because of a lawsuit or that the manufacturer has gone out of business and there is no longer support for or whatever reason that we will end up adopting the same "universal" type of diagnostic plug as the automotive industry.

2. You can say all day long that you do not need the diagnostic software, cables etc. to repair 95% of certain manufacturers machines and in some cases that is true but I am not talking about just the software I am talking about going to that make/model of machines dealer/manufacturer and attempting to purchase whatever "equipment" is necessary to repair/diagnose that machine and them telling you they won't release it for whatever reason they think sounds good that day. Here is an example: for the veracitor series you do not need a computer, cables or whatever to do 95% of the needed repairs, but I would like to see you fix it at all without the password or if you can fix it you usually cannot reset the codes so you go to the dealer and they say that they will not give you the passwords and they will not sell you any of the software etc. needed. That is what I am talking about I don't care one bit how a manufacturer sets it up as long as they make it available to anyone for a reasonable price.

3. To clear things up I am not an independent "trying to steal business" I am actually a dealer for multiple manufacturers and I currently have the software, passcodes, handsets, cables etc for 95% of the manufacturers out there but that isn't the point, the point is that I have had to waste countless hours and who knows how many thousands upon thousands of dollars to acquire these items.

4. You would like me to state exactly what I want our industry to do with this, and I say the entire point of this is to come to an agreement as a whole (or at least the majority is satisfied) I am not in a position to say what exactly this industry has to do or anything like that I believe that no one here should be able to decide that by themselves. But if you read my posts above you will see that what I do want out of this is for it to be fairer to the end user and to us as dealers/independents etc.  As I stated in previous posts I am getting this topic going because I think that no one dealer/manufacturer should be able to tell anyone that they can or cannot work on their machine because they decide they will not sell the needed "equipment" to do so and that they have to use them for whatever reason they decide.

5. You say that the end user should be purchasing more of the equipment that is not held captive and I agree if our industry will not make a change the problem is that most end users are not as up-to-date as we are on the complications they are going to have when purchasing any make/model of equipment and we all know that typically most salesman of that make are not going to advertise "hey this is a great truck but if you ever feel like we are not treating you fairly, that is probably too bad because we are the only person in this entire territory that can fix it, so you are stuck paying whatever we decide is fair and being treated however we decide you should be, and waiting as long as we decide you should to get your machine repaired."

As I stated before I want this to be something that is at the front page of the industry so that we can all come together and everyone will "play by the same rules", If you can honestly say that you think the way we are doing things is the best way to do them then I question what you are doing in this industry or what rock you have been hiding under or what customers are you afraid you are going to loose because of the change.

If you are taking care of your customers they will stay, and if someone out there is better than you and takes them, well . . . then I guess you better step up your game!
Posted 6 Feb 2010 09:38 AM Reply  Report this message
rick_c
Texas, United States

 		holy fajitas dude (forkliftservice) that's pretty strong but i agree that some end users could be more involved. unfortunately PRICE PRICE PRICE gets in the way and  in some cases even for end users the stuff is proprietary. this may be the ONLY time you ever see this from me , but the gggggovernment (awe man that hurt) does need to get involved here. yes it's whining but i buy my own tools and even when this stuff is available it's too expensive to "hide from my wife".

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technology: (no user serviceable parts inside)
















Posted 6 Feb 2010 11:19 AM Reply  Report this message
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